Friday December 6, 2013
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A police report down in Phoenix says that Catalina Clouser, 19, and her unnamed boyfriend were in the park smoking pot. Clouser's baby was with them. They drove off to buy some beer and were pulled over. The boyfriend was arrested for suspicion of driving under the influence.
The report goes on to say that Clouser was so upset about the arrest that she drove to a friend's home where she "admittedly smoked one or two additional bowls of marijuana."
Clouser decided to leave the house around midnight with her baby asleep in a car seat. As she as getting everything settled, Clouser put her child on the roof of her car.
She got home, and went to take the kid out of the car. But guess what? No kid.
Realizing her mistake, she started calling friends to see if they could run out and look for the baby.
Phoenix police spokesman James Holmes says the baby fell off the top of the car in the middle of an intersection and was found unharmed and strapped into the seat. The infant was taken to a local hospital as a precaution and is in the custody of state Child Protective Services.
Witnesses who were friends of the mother advised officers at the scene that the child belonged to Clouser, which was verified by the mother, who then arrived at the scene and "made admissions to what had occurred."
She was booked into jail on child abuse and aggravated assault charges.
The question is....
How about a charge of child neglect and never let her see the child again. Put her away somewhere she won't have any more babies and perhaps women like this should have surgery so they will never be able to have another baby, and still should serve some prison time.
Does anyone think this incident is going to change the womans way of life? Can't really call her a mother.
I often wonder about myself. I always seem to fall somewhere between a strict law and order guy and a sob sister. I can just see myself in the shoes of that woman. The discovery that the kid isn't in the car. The panic. The fear. The rushing around. Not knowing what to do. It must have been terrible for her.
The original problem lies in the drug use, doesn't it? Ever been drunk? I have. It doesn't help you focus on the small things. Nor does it help you think straight. I long ago quit drinking any more than an occasional social drink, and these days that comes down to an eyedropper of red wine. For me it was easy. I've always been that kind of person. Not everyone is. And I genuinely feel for those who struggle in the web as the spider slips closer and closer .
What the woman did was incredibly stupid. Or was it? Was is perhaps just the reaction of someone who was sick with worry over her boyfriend, angry that he had been arrested, worrying about where they were headed next, and....
....as distracted as you or I would have been under those circumstances. How different was she, really, from me on the morning I put a soft drink on my roof and drove off?
Two questions arise:
What do we do with the woman as a result of all this?
How do we teach people that drugs are both a solution and a problem?
One Number 1, I think I can safely quote from Benjamin Disraeli, one of the greatest men who ever served England. In the middle 1800's, he said, "Great services are not cancelled by one act; one single error...." In other words, in deciding what to do about, or with, either the mother or the child the entire history of the woman should be taken into account--both past and future--and the decision should be based on that. This one event could be what it takes to help her to see the folly of drug use. Punishing her may only make matters worse.
As to Number 2, I think that is where the government, and perhaps we as well, have failed. Where are we teaching WHY drugs are not an answer? If there's any place where we are doing that I don't know of it. Human beings are as predictable as any living thing. We move toward things that give us pleasure, and away from things that give us pain. Where are we teaching the truth of drugs? They capture us with pleasure, and lead us into a life of pain. We may use them at first; but all too often the table is turned and they use us.
Anyone that puts a baby on top of a car is an idiot to begin with.
Sober, drunk, drugged or worried.
It makes no difference.
I don't remember reading if the police checked her for alcohol, drugs, or if she had a license to drive. Seems they would have waited for her to drive off before they left. Especially if she was really upset. Anytime my vehicle has been stopped the officer has always waited until we left before he did after checking our IDs.
The article was a little confusing. It did not specify whose car it was that the boyfriend was driving when he was stopped and arrested. Hers? Beats me. Seems unlikely though. They usually impound the vehicle, don't they? Again, beats me.
As to her stupid mistake. It was just the kind of thing we all do when we are angry and distracted. Although I care a lot about kids, I'd have to check he past--and future--before I made a decision like that, wouldn't you? We all make mistakes. I can think of one that Mom and Dad made.
I went back and read what you said. "The police said they had been in the park smoking pot."
What kind of police do they have in that area if they knew they had both been smoking pot and let the woman drive the car with or without a baby with her? Late for a donut break? Maybe there is more to the story than a stupid woman.
No we don't all do stupid things like putting a baby on top of a car for any reason. Distracted, upset or for any reason. Even a drunk has more sense than that.
How can you compare putting a soda pop on top of your car to a woman putting a baby on top of the car?
I am having a tough time finding any sympathy for this woman.
I suppose though, that my sympathy ears closed up tight the minute that I read "they had been in the park smoking pot.”.
I am with Pat on this. While I recognize that nice normal people occasionally do dumb or forgetful things...why, I remember when I was only about 6 or 7, my little brother was 2 years younger, and we were the last 2 of four children. We were going on a family "ride" (this was when gas was MUCH cheaper!!). We stopped at the gas station that was on the corner of our neighborhood. Of course, we all had to pile out to go potty. Once the car was fueled, we got back in and headed down the road. 40 minutes later, Mom realized that it was awfully quiet and checked the back seat. Ohmigosh!!! We had left my little brother at the gas station!! Fortunately it was a very small town in which we lived and the attendants knew our family. They plied my little brother with candy bars and soda pop until we got back to get him. He hadn't even realized we were gone!!
That being said, a woman smoking pot in the park when her baby is present is not merely forgetful, she is an idiot. And I agree with Pat. Why in the world, if the police knew that she had been in the park smoking pot, did they let her leave with the baby? And on what planet is the safety and well being of a woman's boyfriend, more important than that of her infant child?
Heard about this story a week or two ago and questions filled my mind.
I answered them.
Don't know this woman. Don't know if she's married. There is no mention of the father of the child.
SO I am going to make a series of assumptions based on my observations of life in the 21st Century.
Assumption one: This woman is not new to the drug culture that promotes getting high to "understand" or ignore the world around us.
Assumption two: This woman conceived the child while involved in this drug culture.
Assumption three: This woman/child rejected strict (or not involved)parents and was given no direction
and not disciplined.
Assumption four: This woman may love her child.....but has no idea (wasn't taught) what responsibilities go along with being a parent.
In the end....Our system will take the child away. Sadly they will likely give it to someone no better than the Mom.
What should happen? In my perfect world, the mother would attend parenting boot camp. Full of dirty diapers to wash, plates to clean, food to cook, floors to clean, beds to make, baths to give, reading time and playing time and discipline and responsibility. Help her to learn what parents should do, grow up, take responsibility for her life and those she brings into this world. Pass boot camp, get the kid back. Live with a reasonble probation. Get on with life.
Send the troops out to find the father and beat his ass.
Doesn't matter if she is married or who the father is.
Why no assumption on why the cops let her drive?
Don't assume anything. What does it spell seperately
I think there is more to the story.
Don't believe the 'cops' let her drive. Her decision. Pat, that's my point. My assumptions are more to the story. The story will tell. But the point I make is simple. How did this woman come to believe that she had the right to be selfish when she has a child dependent on her?
If she admitted she had been smoking pot shouldn't they have impounded the car and taken her to jail? I know you were a police officer. Give me the answer please.
I guess for me, this is not so much about good cops/bad cops, but the law. If the officers knew that she had been "at the park smoking pot", why was she not tested for DUI? And why was she allowed to leave with the baby in the vehicle?
Dan, as you stated in another thread about Tom, I have the utmost respect for you. However,the resolution of this one case is not going to answer, nor solve all of the moral ills of our society. It is definitely symptomatic that this mother believed the decision was hers to make as to the care of her baby, and that she had the right to be "selfish". Think about it; she gave no thought to the well being of her baby while she sat in the park smoking pot with her boyfriend. As a matter of fact, she gave no thought to the well being of her baby when she irresponsibly had sex with somebody else who was so irresponsible as to not practice safe sex in an effort to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.
I absolutely agree that something has gone awry in our society, with regard to morals, and ethics, and integrity, and responsibility. However, that is one thing that the police are in place for. It was their responsibility to ensure that she was not under the influence and that the baby was safe. I could not care less about the mother, she makes her own choices and has free will, the baby is another story. It is the responsibility of each of us to watch out for the innocent ones who are not big or old enough to make those decisions and choices for themselves.
Finally, Pat raises a good point: I have never been pulled over for any reason, that the officer did not stay right behind me, until I pulled my vehicle out into traffic after the stop. Why did the officers not do this? And if, as the report says, the mother was "visibly upset about the arrest of her boyfriend", so much so that she had to go "smoke a couple more bowls at her friend's house". Why did the officers not do something to ensure the safety and well being of the baby? Furthermore, if the boyfriend was arrested for dui, did the officers not search the car for additional drugs? If not, why? If so, I am completely incredulous that they did not find something with which to charge the mother. So many unanswered questions.
Bottom line? And I am sorry to disagree with you Dan, the police officers dropped the ball with regard to the protection and safety and well being of this poor baby, who likely does not stand a chance of a decent life.
Thank you Kim,
I was beginning to think I was the crazy one here. Now there are two who think maybe everything wasn't done right.
A distraught pot head had no business driving a car or having care of a baby.
"What kind of police do they have in that area if they knew they had both been smoking pot and let the woman drive the car with or without a baby with her?'
Pat, I do NOT think it was her car. They didn't say, but I know this much: She was NOT driving.
"How can you compare putting a soda pop on top of your car to a woman putting a baby on top of the car?"
Easy. I just push the keys on this thing and the letters appear on the screen, It's like magic!"
"Why in the world, if the police knew that she had been in the park smoking pot, did they let her leave with the baby?"
Kim, I am not arguing with your opinions because they are opinions, and all opinions are welcome, but I will repeat, "The boyfriend was arrested for suspicion of driving under the influence." There was not a single word in the article that suggested that the police knew, or even suspected, that the woman had been smoking pot. That fact came out only later.
Glad you got your kid back. Must have been one hell of a moment!
We are a bit off the subject. Woman not driving at scene where boyfriend arrested. No evidence cops knew of her smoking pot at scene where boyfriend was arrested. No evidence of her driving car at that time. All comments about her smoking pot at any time came from testimony taken AFTER she was looking for her kid.
Back to two original questions, if you are interested:
Why hasn't "Child Protective Services" come up with an Adult training system to save the kids?
What's wrong with my Idea..."What should happen? In my perfect world, the mother would attend parenting boot camp. Full of dirty diapers to wash, plates to clean, food to cook, floors to clean, beds to make, baths to give, reading time and playing time and discipline and responsibility (with rules and overseen of course.) . Help her to learn what parents should do, grow up, take responsibility for her life and those she brings into this world. Pass boot camp, get the kid back. Live with a reasonable probation. Get on with life."
As for number 2. We have to stop sending the wrong the message.
How can you have commercials for drugs all over television and magazines and newspapers, telling us they are the end all to all of our problems.......then say to kids, don't do drugs?
They banned cigarette commercials. Ban drug commercials. Let people go to their Doctor and ask, instead of go to their doctor and demand.
Doctors....take back control from the Pharmaceutical industry. Know what causes the problem, and what to stop doing that's causing it. OR what to do to help the body do it on it's own.
One more thing I should have said. CPS should be privitized. Take it off the backs of taxpayers. The Government can't fix it and shouldn't pay for it. When they do they only exaccerbate the problem. Make private companies meet standards, control the cost (like they do with utilities) and ship the problem out. The Courts determine how much the accused should pay. Hold them to it and make them work it off. No Free Ride.
How do you know she was not driving? She should have been strapping the baby in a car seat.
If she was sober and not drugged it looks even worse if what she did was with a clean mind.
She has no right to have an infant in her care.
In theory, Dan, I like your idea of "boot camp", or "adult training", however, in practice, I can tell you that druggies can and will do ANYTHING to get what they want. They will lie, cheat or steal to, or from, anybody to achieve their own selfish goals. Furthermore, many of them can and do clean up and can appear as model citizens for as long as deemed necessary, again to achieve their own selfish wants.Therefore, it is my admittedly not expert, however, very experienced, opinion, that a "boot camp" type experience or "adult training" would work only in the very short run. The people assigned to the experience would do everything expected of them, and appear to take in all of the knowledge imparted, all the while anticipating the day they were released and could get their next fix.
As for whether or not she was driving, that point is totally irrelevant. If the boyfriend was high enough as to be charged with dui, then the cops had to recognize that it could not have been that long since he actually did the smoking. Furthermore, if he was so high as to be charged with dui, why did the cops not do a little more intensive investigation or observation as to the mother's condition? If it were just the woman and the boyfriend, let them wrap their car around a telephone pole for all I care, however, there was a baby involved and I feel that a more comprehensive investigation of the mother should have taken place. If they had both been smoking, I am certain that they, as well as their clothes, and by proximity, the car, had to reek of pot smoke. Did the officer's not have any concern for the baby and it's exposure to the pot smoke and/or lingering odor? There is all kinds of talk about second hand tobacco smoke, does pot smoke not have the same affect? Of course it does! Anybody who has gone to a rock concert, has experienced the "contact high" associated with being surrounded by scores of people smoking. I gave up live concerts for exactly that reason, the headaches were excruciating.
I absolutely bemoan the fact that there are far too many women who give birth and yet have zero knowledge of how to properly care for a baby. I also would love to see training programs to help them learn the proper way to parent and care for themselves and their child. However, I am very hard core when it comes to common sense and child care. It does not take training, or boot camp, or a rocket science degree to know that doing drugs, drinking alcohol, or smoking cigarettes, when pregnant is not good for your unborn baby. Nor does it require any of those things to know not to do those things when you have the immediate responsibility and care of that baby. You want to leave the baby with a babysitter and tie one on, go for it. But, protect that innocent, helpless baby at all costs. The ability to make and carry a baby comes with responsibility, and if a woman is not capable of meeting that responsibility, that privilege should be relinquished.
Sorry Tom, I digressed and didn't answer your questions.
"1. What do we do with the woman as a result of all this?"
Her parental rights are terminated and the baby is adopted out to a home who desperately wants a baby and knows how to care for it. After all, how fortunate is the mother, as well as the baby that the baby was securely strapped in to what must have been a sturdy car seat? How differently this story would have turned out, if the car seat had busted apart, or had landed on the tarmac, or another car had been right behind and hit the car seat. Would the mother then have been charged with homicide? She should be!
"2. How do we teach people that drugs are both a solution and a problem?"
I don't think that we can. I think it is more a matter of commom sense. I am of two thoughts with regard to Dan's assertion that drugs should not be advertised on tv and in magazines. I do feel that the average consumer has far too much information with regard to the various prescription drugs out there. But the advertisements for prilosec, or viagra, or boniva are not encouraging people to go out and use bath salts. And, the truly problematic drugs are not typically the ones that a person goes to the Doctor's office and then takes a scrip to the pharmacy to be filled. The ones that create such havoc in our society are the ones that are bought and sold on street corners, and in dark alley's, and in surreptitious deals. The pot, cocaine, crack, meth, ice, bath salts, heroin, ecstacy, and yes, the prescriptions that are bought and sold illegally, vicodin, xanax, valium, hydrocodone.
In my opinion. a person knows that when they go to the Doctor and get a prescription for an anitbiotic, or an anti-depressant, or any one of a number of other meds; and they use it in accordance with the Doctor's and the Pharmacist's instructions, that drug is not going to destroy and/or wreak havoc on their life. On the other hand, if you call up some guy on a cell phone number and have to use code to tell him what you want, and meet him on a street corner and receive your merchandise wrapped in tin foil or in an unmarked bottle, it is probably a good bet that these drugs are not going to be good for you.
Bottom line: Use common sense and the brains that the Good Lord gave you.
"Full of dirty diapers to wash..."
Just having some fun, Dan. "To wash?" My! My! Aren't we showing our age. :-)
"CPS should be privitized."
Interesting idea, and not a bad one--as long as there are NO laws saying when CPS has to be used. If it is an "it if you volunteer for it" program, that's fine. If we allow AZLEG to create a program where they can milk the poor with another program, they will do it--as they have with tobacco taxes, and as they do with all the silly, useless, nothing but money-making, "put a thing in that car for them to blow into" fun and games, which in case you don't know it is paid for by the people who have to do it, the poorest of the poor.
"Bottom line: Use common sense and the brains that the Good Lord gave you."
I'll just add something to that sentence: "...or pay the price, whatever that may be." Want to do it? Want to get sick? Have at it!
Left to me, I would legalize drugs and treat the real problem, which is, I believe:
Making drugs illegal puts money in criminal hands, making it a very attractive, and very easy way to earn a living. It is the revival of Prohibtition. I see it as the prime reason we have a drug problem, which we did NOT have until we made drugs illegal. I have a copy of the 1912 Sears Catalog in which you can order morphine, cocaine, or heroine for almost nothing. Drugs were not a problem then because no one was pushing them.
Making drugs illegal places an immense tax burden on the nation, right from the municipal level to the federal level. Most people in prison are there one way or another because of drugs. We simply cannot afford the cost. When compared with the harm done by drug use, the harm done by the failed attempt to make them illegal is far greater.
The choice of whether to use drugs, or to not use them, is a personal and private one which was made by individuals for the first few million years that humans were on this planet. It is a strictly logical choice, not a moral choice. There is nothing inherently evil about using drugs. It may be stupid or harmful, but it is NOT evil. The situation we have today is the inevitable result of trying to regulate the private lives of individuals where there is no moral issue involved.
To make it as clear as I can, the real problem is PEOPLE, not drugs, people who for some reason I do not understand feel that they have the right to declare that any potentially harmful thing an individual can do himself is immoral. And who then take the outrageous step of also making it illegal. If we let people tell us that those who take drugs are criminals, then the next criminal will be YOU as you eat fatty cheeseburger or some french fries. And don't laugh. If you can't see that handwriting on the wall you need to get your glasses changed.
Just FYI, the woman has been charged with "child abuse" and has pleaded not guilty.
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