738 State regulation of building codes.

Comments

Tom Garrett 8 months ago

The next bill we are going to look at is SB 1227: Summary title "municipalities; counties; energy efficient codes."

What's it about? Just read "Background" below:

Here's a link to the full official summary if you'd like to read it. You can come right back to the forum by just clicking your back button.

http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/51leg/2r/summary/s.1227ge_cow.doc.htm&Session_ID=112

Purpose: Prohibits municipalities and counties from certain actions relating to energy efficiency, energy conservation or green construction regulations in new construction.

Background: (Summarized) The ICC, or International Code Council ... develops ... codes for construction, but Arizona is ... a home rule state, meaning that while codes are adopted and enforced locally, the enforcement is closely regulated by the state.

Provisions:

  1. Prohibits cities, towns and counties from the following actions related to energy efficiency, energy conservation or green construction in new construction:

a) adopting any mandatory building codes, ordinances, stipulations or other legal requirements; and

b) denying licenses or building permits, or imposing any fines, penalties or other requirements for non-compliance.

I'd advise you to got back and read paragraph "1." again so that you are absolutely certain what the bill is about. It is NOT about codes in general.

Now that you have read the provisions of the bill, how do you feel about it?

0

Tom Garrett 8 months ago

No comments?

That always surprises me when something strikes so close to home.

0

ALLAN SIMS 8 months ago

While not necessarily close to home, :-) I think this law has too many loopholes in it. The IECC rules are driving the construction industry nuts. Do this, but don’t do that. Prove you are LEED certified. Follow all the LEED rules. (LEED means Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design, which is promoted by the USGBC—U.S. Green Building Council—which itself is a U.S. response to IECC goals and objectives, as well as other global efforts.)

IMHO, IECC ‘directives’ are an insidious effort on the part of the global forces, including the UN, to infiltrate many aspects of each country’s infrastructure. We see the same thing in our National Park systems, where they adhere to the IUCN’s directives. While not directly connected to the UN, the IUCN has very close links the UN.

It all comes back to the globalization, and our puny efforts to resist. Even as the Fed. Gov’t has infiltrated every aspect of our lives, rendering the states as vassal states to the central gov’t, so too does the global effort (Some UN, and some not) reach into our very homes to ‘direct’ how we live, what lights we use, which potty to sit on and etc.

0

Tom Garrett 8 months ago

Allan,

I do not know because I have not researched it, but I think this is just one of several laws that AZLEG has passed whose purpose is to carefully regulate what local municipalities can do regarding the adoption of building codes. What the state does is allow local municipalities to adopt their own codes, but it reserves the right to kick out selected portions of them, which it does.

Here's the entire background summary. Maybe it clarifies matters a bit.

"Background

The International Code Council is a non-profit organization that develops design, build and compliance codes for construction through a consensus-based private sector system. These codes include the International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) and the International Residential Code (IRC). The IECC and chapter 11 of the IRC both establish minimum design and construction requirements for energy efficiency residential structures. Both codes, originally released in 2000, are amended every three years. In Arizona, there is no mandatory statewide residential or commercial energy code; however, Laws 2001, Chapter 340, established IECC 2000 guidelines as the basis for a voluntary statewide energy code. Arizona is classified as a home rule state, meaning that local codes are adopted and enforced locally."

Frankly, I have never seen the need for such detailed building codes. They are an example of over-control gone mad. What i like about this particular exemption is this point:

"1. Prohibits cities, towns and counties from the following actions...

"b) denying licenses or building permits, or imposing any fines, penalties or other requirements for non-compliance."

In other words if you apply for a permit to add a new room, redo and roof, or make some other change, you cannot be denied a permit based on a change in the codes. THAT makes good sense.

It at least shows that AZLEG is working in our behalf and not pulling in the opposite direction.

I'd hate to think of what it must be like in Bloomberg's New York City. Or anywhere in New York State for that matter.

As far as I can see there were fewer ordinances in Moscow at the height of the USSR than there are in NYC right now.

In fact, come to think of it, I know there were. Get this:

I recently read about a low level British diplomat in Moscow whose sink in his Soviet version of a high-rise plugged up. He called for repairs from the city offices. After a long wait a repairman finally showed up. The repairman sawed off the pipe under the sink and told them to put a pail under it. That was that. I believe he stayed there something like 30 more months and nothing else was ever done.

If I remember where I read that (it was in an autobiography of some sort), I'll reference the book for you. It wasn't too long ago — under a year — but I read a lot, so don't hold your breath. :-)

0

ALLAN SIMS 8 months ago

Good points.

Our electrical codes here have multiplied many times over, in the last 10 years, because of government oversight (Federal). This city and many like it have adopted international codes as part of their own. So far, the state hasn't tried to regulate the impact of those adopted codes.

Which is strange, because it lends itself to a lot of variances. Now, the state does have it's own requirements, which are usually less than the city codes; and as long as the city codes exceed those of the state, then they apparently have no problem with it.

Contracts that used to be 15 pages long, are now well over 100. Not quite a 10 to 1 ratio, but close. And, a large part of that has to do with OSHA, LEED and IECC changes. Of course some of it is due to politically driven directives from the other Federal sources as well.

I think this law is really a good start, but it appears to lack something. Maybe that something in the translation??? :-)

0

Tom Garrett 8 months ago

I think AZLEG is doing a good job of trying to protect the people of our state from over-regulation, but Arizona is just one state out of 50. One of these days, probably when housing becomes short, simple construction materials like wood become rare, food is in short supply, and so is money because we have too many people on the planet, a moment will arrive when people wake up to the fact that adding requirements to construction that double or triple the costs of new homes is something we cannot afford as a nation — or as a world.

When that happens — and it is inevitable that it will — people are going to be ready to listen to the voice of reason. What will that voice say? "It is not possible avoid every possible contingency by making new laws. Nor is it proper to line the pockets of businessmen by forcing people to spend money on things they don't need."

At that point in time I foresee a third political party, one that joins the conservative liberal wing of the Republican Party — the wing which wrote this law to protect the ordinary man-in-the-street — to the last remains of the liberals in the Democratic Party — those who have clung to the liberal principles upon which this nation was founded.

Then, the pendulum will at last swing back, but this time it will be like the pendulum in Edgar Allen Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum." It will cut with a razor sharp edge.

It's odd, isn't it? Some people would like us to believe that Republican equates with "conservative" and Democrat equates with "liberal," when the truth is quite different.

Liberalism, the viewpoint of our forefathers, is defined as "a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality." Liberals "support ideas such as free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property."

A reading of that clearly shows that what the conservative wing of the Republican Party is so "conservative" about is retaining the fundamental beliefs of liberalism. It also clearly shows that we are far more accurate in calling the elitist control types in the Democratic Party by the correct term "progressives" because they want to progressively apply controls that are in opposition to our principles, thereby eliminating individual liberty. As for the business controlled wing of the Republican Party; it is no more "conservative" than Charlie Chan was a tall blond Norwegian. It tries to substitute license** for liberty.

**License means having the liberty to disobey rules or regulations imposed on others, especially when there is an advantage to be gained in doing so. It is an abuse of liberty, the power to do whatever one pleases.

See? The extremists in both parties are people who want to substitute license for liberty. It's what I call the "just-us syndrome," and answers the question, "Who has to live by all these %$#@! rules?"

Answer: "Just us."

0

Pat Randall 8 months ago

When my son's house was built down by the golf course about 10 yrs, ago all hell broke loose the day he was to get his occupancy certificate. He had double pane windows and a golf ball had hit the window in the wash room breaking the outside pane. There was still one pane of glass in the frame. The new window was ordered but the town was not going to let him move in for six weeks when the new window arrived and was installed. Mama went to the building dept. told them when he moves in he can break every window out of the house and there is nothing you can do about it. I want the occupancy permit and now. Guess what? I got it. He moved in and when the window arrived it was installed. How stupid can inspectors be?

0

Tom Garrett 8 months ago

"How stupid can inspectors be?"

At last! A question I have an answer to!

VERY!

Want an example?

I'll give you a BIG one in a few weeks.

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 4 weeks ago

Hi, folks.

Been swamped with work, getting ready for a government investigation. :-)

Should be pretty minor, hopefully no storm troopers in Gestapo drag, like the last time. (Different department)

Hope to get back to this by Friday. (If I'm not in Ft. Leavenworth) :-)

Allan

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 4 weeks ago

Wish you luck, Allan.

Anyway, my guess is that Leavenworth has cable modems by now.

Can't over-punish the criminals. :-)

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 4 weeks ago

Allan We could all go back to using out houses, think of the water that would be saved. No flushing. Sat. night baths in the old round laundry tubs. Washing on Mondays in the old time Maytag washers with the wringers. Hang the clothes on the line to dry. Save electricity. Flat irons for ironing. Think of the energy and money we would save along with the water.

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 4 weeks ago

Yep. I didn't know what indoor plumbing was until I was about 8. And that was when I visited my rich relatives. :-)

I grew up on a 2 mule farm. (Sometimes 1.)

I used to draw water from a well (13 turns on the windlass from bottom to top) for my Mom to wash clothes outside. She did have a wringer washer on the back porch; but when the power was off, which was quite often, (They got power there the year I was born) she'd break out the old scrub board.

When I was even smaller, my job was to keep the fires going, under the old iron kettles she heated water in.

Hard to believe I was doing that until I was about 13, and 6 years later I was an electronics specialist on Minute Man Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles capable of putting nukes in Moscow. :-) My, how things had changed (In my world) from the 19th century lifestyle to things most folks didn't even know much about until the late '80's. All in a span of 6 years.

All to say, sure, life in many ways would be better, to go back to those older ways. (But, not for the ladies that would have to wash clothes outside, though.) :-)

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 4 weeks ago

My mothers washing machine had a gas motor. I remember when APS first came to Payson. The first two weeks no one could sleep because they didn't hear the generator that Grady Harrison had to furnish a little electricity to the town.

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Ha!

Guess who wrote a long, long post yesterday and evidently didn't hit the post button?

Well, let's see....

You folks started a lot farther back in modern living than I did. We at least had running water, electricity, and indoor plumbing in NYC in 1932. No gas ranges, refrigerators, or washers, though. Mom washed clothes in two big old kitchen washtub sinks that were standard equipment in those days. And boy did she work! That scrubbing board was hard work. And she had to carry the wash up to the high end of the backyard and hang them on a line, where in winter they froze solid, but somehow or other were dry.

It's just as well we didn't have gas. One of the things people used to do in those days when it was cold and they had a cold water flat (no heat) was to put a couple of large pots of water on the gas stove and boil them to heat up the house. The gas, hitting cold surfaces, didn't burn all the way to carbon dioxide; some of it only burned to carbon monoxide, so every once in a while we'd read about some family that died that way.

It was the Depression. No money for coal for the hot water furnace, so it got so cold in the cellar that the water jacket on the furnace froze. After that there was no heat in the house except for the kitchen range and two little carry-around kerosene heaters. Wasn't a problem though. The only thing I really noticed about it as a kid was that I could do the 20 foot dash in 2 seconds from a warm bed to the kitchen range, where I dressed. :-)

Our kitchen range was coal. When Billy converted it to run on kerosene you'd have thought we were rich the way Mom acted. Mom finally got a washer (no dryer) and a refrigerator when I was 14.

Allen, I saw some of those missiles. Not Minutemen though. I was stationed at R-G AFB in Kansas City, Missouri, and one of the bases I served from headquarters there in 1967 was a missile base about 70 miles away in Kansas. I think the base was named Middle Of Nowhere With Silos.

Never forget that place. The land was so flat you could see the curve of the Earth as you can at the seaboard. And that Sage Building. One big lump of concrete. No windows. Able to withstand anything except a direct nuclear hit.

I got the guided tour from a major who was very proud of the place. It was strange to walk down "hallways" that were lined with 8 foot high racks of radio tubes on either side and realize that you were walking around INSIDE the computer. How would you like that, Pat? You could have just stood there and warmed up a hurting back. Except for one thing — they kept the place as cold as an icebox for the computer.

That major was crazy. You know what he was most proud of? His big old multi-dulti-million dollar computer could print a picture of Santa Claus — all done with x's.

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 3 weeks ago

I knew a few guys with backgrounds like yours in my first hitch, Allen; guys from so far back in the sticks that the crows needed stilts to walk through the snow. They were always likable, but every once in a while one of them would do something that would really shake us CT boys up.

Like the kid up in Iceland who always volunteered for guard duty at the radar site. One day we asked him why the hey he liked it out there in the boonies so much instead of on-base where he could get inside and get warm once in a while. He told us that when he pulled guard duty on the flightline he froze, but out there on the radar site he kept warm by standing in the beam of the radar antenna.

Poor kid was micro-waving himself. Of course, there were no microwave ovens yet, so how did he know? We told him he better quit it because it wasn't safe, but he just kept doing it. I'm sure he had cataracts in his eyes by the time he was 30 or so. Microwaves do that. A lot Army technicians had their eyes ruined by the high intensity radar on helicopters.

Pat, who's Grady Harrison?

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 3 weeks ago

I have a good friend who was at that base in Kansas back then. Those were Atlas Agena missiles. Liquid fueled, whereas the Minuteman was solid propellant. Very dangerous systems. The Atlas was the rocket that put John Glen in Space. The skin was so lightweight that a man could hit it hard with his fist, and damage it, beyond repair. And, most interesting of all is that its fuel was kerosene mixed with Liquid Oxygen. Plain old kerosene with some additives. But, what the heck, that's about the same stuff jet engines use. The additives are just tweeked a bit more. :-)

Yeah, we were so far back in the sticks, in Alabama, that we thought we were normal. :-)

As for being cooked? I got chewed out, big time, by a sergeant when he caught me cutting across a restricted pad at Ellsworth AFB in S. Dakota. But, I got a flight mechanic in a lot more trouble than me. I was walking past the end of a B-52, on my way to my squadron's hanger. I was about half-way past the plane when I realized the 50 cal. guns in the tail of the 52 were following me. That gave me the creeps, so I double timed into the restricted area, to get away from those guns. That got this sarge's attention, and he asked me 'What the h... are you doing in this restricted area?'

When I explained, he swore, and after chewing me out, he yelled for the ground crew's chief, and got on him for leaving the radar on in the tail of the 52. You know poop rolls down hill, and before I passed beyond hearing I heard the crew chief laying into the tech who'd forgotten to switch it off.

Now, that can't hold a candle to that fellow camping out in front of the radar antenna. But, I always wondered if some of my eccentricity has been a result of that. After hearing about him, I guess I've worried for nothing. :-)

At the LCF's (Launch Control Facilities) each had a MARS station, with its big hundred foot antenna. With that, they could talk all around the world on the MARS system. They warned us not to walk near it, or we'd be toasted like a marsh-mellow. From your friend's experience, that was far-fetched, as well.

Oh, BTW, have you seen the series Fox News has been doing on eminent domain abuse? An old black man who was a veteran with terminal cancer, forced to move from his little house and garden to facilitate a mall, and a group of people forced out of an apartment complex (All black) for the same reason? And, one of those was living in the complex because he'd lost his home to the same process a few years before.

And, being in Texas right now, I'm proud for our AG's stance against the BLM. Have you heard about that? It makes the Bundy story in Nevada tame, although this is just in the starting stages.

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Tom, Grady Harrison was the man that built the tin building on the sw corner of Main and Mclane which is still standing. About 1929 or 1932, depending on which of his sons you asked. He also ran a freight line from Phoenix. The tin was hauled from Globe when they took down a round house for the trains. He had a garage and gas station and also had a generator that furnished electricity to parts of the town. It didn't run in the daytime except for Monday when the women used their electric washing machines. You could hear it all over town. Now remember at that time there were very few streets in Payson and not everyone had electricity. Kerosene lamps. Wood cook stoves and wood heating stoves or fireplaces, then butane. We didn't know we were missing anything. Battery powered radios. No TVs(: So when APS came in everyone missed the noise from the generator for the first few weeks and couldn't go to sleep. Like singing a baby to sleep. Hope you can understand what I wrote.

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Not sure about Tom, but I followed it really well.

Interesting. Ever consider how few people of times past, even a few of us remember now? Like Mr. Harrison, remembered here because he had a noisy generator. A few others might remember him because he ran a good garage. But, what of those older folks that he remembered? What of them? Some would have been notable in his mind. But, to us, imagined shadows in the mind of someone we; or someone we know, vaguely remembers.

Maybe he fondly remembered the old man that ran the sawmill, or the old cowboy that he remembered riding his horse into the store when he was a kid. Or, the banker that was good enough to give him his first loan. The preacher who took time to talk to him. All lost to history. Remembered by people who themselves are just a fleeting memory of a few of us.

Ever wonder what will be remembered about us? And, by who? And, for how long? :-)

Some, like Ben Franklin and Shakespeare had the ability to leave impressions that last, but not many. The cook who made such great hash? Who remembers her, outside of grand kids, or great grand kids? And, even family can't retain knowledge of her past four or five generations, before the memories are simply not passed on. How many of us can remember the name of all four great grandfathers, much less what was notable in their lives?

What about the law makers? Ever consider how many thousands of laws have been passed by our government? They're still on the books, but few of us are even cognizant of most of them. And, what of the men who passed them? We remember the Woodrow Wilson's, Queen Elizabeth I and the Teddy Roosevelt's, but so very few, out of so many who impacted our lives, without our knowledge of them. How then can we anticipate the future, if we know so little of our past?

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 3 weeks ago

It's like driving a car, with only the rear view mirror to guide us. And, that view is so blurred and vague that it is near useless. So then, we see these laws proposed, but if we had a clearer picture of the future, we could more readily anticipate how to draft the laws for better impact. And, how can that clearer picture of the future be seen, without clear history to guide us?

How do we make laws that can't be dribbled away by judges bent on ruining them? How can we make them so that sadistic use can't usurp their impact on us?

Thus you see the need for the people to exert the ultimate authority over this runaway government; that breeds further usurpation in local governments, such as the abuse of eminent domain; or in the case of this law, the twisted adoption of codes detrimental to our citizens.

For laws and law makers are imperfect, we don't learn from our past. As a writer said over 2500 years ago "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? It hath been already of old time, which was before us?

So, to break the cycle, the framers made a provision, knowing this situation would come about, in that the people themselves, by law, could, outside the framework of that existing law, make law to correct the abuses of our highest government; and, thereby, making sure that we can correct the abuses of that highest government. In doing that, it can once again protect us from over zealous local and state governments enforcing foreign thoughts, concepts and provisions upon our citizenry, as this law tries to correct.

The question is, can we rise to the level it will take to do so? And, can we make it so that laws like this one aren't necessary?

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 3 weeks ago

"Hope you can understand what I wrote.'

You bet!

"How then can we anticipate the future, if we know so little of our past?"

How true that is! Because the world has changed to the point that books which once existed only in a few college libraries, or here and there on the back shelves of used book stores, have come to light again in the form of electronic books we are suddenly able to read the actual words of thousands of people who lived before us.

I am currently reading, among other things, General Sir Earl Frederick Sleigh Robert's 1897 book, "Forty-One Years in India," where he tells how he rose from a subaltern (2nd Lieutenant) to the Commander-in-Chief. He has just reached 1857, the year of the Sepoy Rebellion, and I am reading of the deaths of thousands of men and women on either side. If you think there is nothing to learn by reading of something that happened 157 years ago, in a land 12,000 miles away, think again. On every page I have read so far there is a lesson that is as real and important today as it was then.

The words are those of someone who was there, someone telling what his eyes saw and his ears heard. And to make it more real, every time he mentions a place where a battle occurred I click on Firefox Images and actually go look at the place. I am learning history in the raw — in other words what those who came before us learned and put down on paper so that we would not have to learn it again the hard way.

I once picked up the textbook in an advanced sociology class and read something I have never forgotten: "The problems of today are often caused by the solutions to the problems of yesterday."

"So then, we see these laws proposed, but if we had a clearer picture of the future, we could more readily anticipate how to draft the laws for better impact."

:-) "If we had a clearer picture of the future...."

Yes, if only we had.

"The question is, can we rise to the level it will take to do so?"

When things become bad enough, when we are hungry and cold, we will rise.

"And, can we make it so that laws like this one aren't necessary?"

Maybe. If only people can learn that science and history both describe the world as it is, not as it "should" be, and have the common sense to act on that fact.

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Allan, You are right about people not knowing history and the people who made it. The saddest part is that the histories that have been written about Payson and the people that lived here in the late 1890's and on that built Payson are mostly someone's dream. Most of the authors were not raised here, and had no relatives that were. They moved here in the last 40 yrs. or so and don't have a clue. I want to scream when I read some of the books. My Granddad Hilligass came here in 1898 so I do have some roots here. My grandmother on my dad's side was born in 1888 at Greenback, down in Tonto Basin. My dad born in Gisela in 1904. My dad's Grandfather Neal was the first white man to drown in Tonto Creek, in 1904 or 05. He insisted he had to check on his goats across the creek, but it was swifter than he thought and was swept away with his horse. His body was found later down near where the damn is built. There is something to be said about being raised in Gisela and surrounding area. My dads grandmother lived to be 101. He and his dad, and mother all lived to be 95. Enough history for today. I know it is boring to people who don't know any of them.

0

Kim Chittick 7 months, 3 weeks ago

"I know it is boring to people who don't know any of them." Are you kidding?? I LOVE reading this stuff. Pat, I love reading your information about Payson and your families, and Tom, your memories are fascinating; and Allan your reminiscing is so interesting. I pray that none of you stops posting your memories!!

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Thanks Kim, glad I didn't bore everyone. Sometimes I have no control over my hands when I start typing about my home town.

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Thanks, Kim. That was nice.

Yeah, Pat, I love to hear honest to goodness history. And, you're right about the books we read today. It isn't just the history of our locales that grow foggy; but history of everything.

I have some very old 'history' books, dating back to the late 1800's, and what they relate then, has little semblance to that written today. Everything is colored to fit the author’s fancy, or the fancy of the multitudes.

Nor, do they go back to those documents so depended upon by our forefathers. For, example consider the law we are reacting to here. Those people of old relied on incisive books like Blackstone and Plutarch (Who himself lamented the bias in the writings of history, at that time.) Men who saw the truth of things, and laid them down, that others might follow.

Who, outside of a few lawyers, even know what Blackstone wrote and why? The people who are trying to force European legal values on our property would do well to read Blackstone’s “The right of Things”, wherein he delves into property rights in England in the mid 18th century. It is upon his defining such things that caused our founders to mimic much of his views in our Federal Gov’t; and making the right to do as you please with your own property a basic tenet of the Constitution.

So, people today, digesting this modern biased history, economics, city politics and policies, and the supposed guidelines for them to follow, don’t really know the truth. Only the truth as it was described to them, through the colored lenses of the biased teachers. It is the same in schools today. Our colleges are filled with people who intend to teach their pet theories, not the truth. My son is in his 4th year of college, and it is amazing the stuff he tells us is common fare in classrooms today.

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Allan, There are two different worlds, theirs and ours. (: Ours was and is better.

1

Tom Garrett 7 months, 3 weeks ago

"I know it is boring to people who don't know any of them."

No, it isn't, Pat.

And I see that Kim feels the same way. And Allan too. I'm reading one post at a time. :-)

That says a lot!

There's history and there's history. The only way to sure you are getting the real thing is to read what was written at the time. The trouble is, just a few year ago those books were close to impossible to find, and when you found one the price was VERY high. I was dying to read read Madison's two volume book about the notes he took during the Constitutional Convention, but couldn't find them. Then I found them but even though I paid hard cash for them they were ready to fall apart.

Today? Just go to Gutenberg, download it, and that's that.

You know a great book about Arizona? It's called "Arizona" — surprise! — and was written as a WPA project in 1940. I got lucky and found a discarded copy at the public library in Port Arthur, Texas. What a treasure! It details the whole state, just as it was — the roads, the land, the people, everything. You can read about Payson in the days when there used to be horse races down Main Street. What's so great about it is that it isn't too far back in history; it just around the corner from the days we know.

I looked it up in Bookfinder for you. You can get a copy for as little at $18.

Just click on this link and enter WPA for author and Arizona for title.

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/

Allan, you are dead right!

Want to read a book put together from I do not know how many pieces of history from AD 79 to AD 1888? Read "Library of universal adventure by sea and land," by William Dean Howells, editor at the time (1888) of the Atlantic Magazine. Every piece in it is a personal account, and many of them are things you never expected to find anywhere — 1018 pages of them.

The book is a bit rough because it was scanned in by Google, which is not interested in quality as much as quantity, but you'll learn to read around things like a scanner that read a!! for "all" or rmd for "find." It is so great that after I started reading it I went out and bought a hard cover copy — the original 1888 edition. Cost me eighty bucks, but it's worth it.

One thing that's great about it is that when you read a short excerpt from something you discover a book that you probably van find the whole of on Gutenberg — perfectly scanned and converted to ePUB, Kindle, or HTML.

You should read about Charles II trying to get out of England before the Roundheads find him and chop off his head. Reads like the Perils of Pauline.

As for college profs....

You should have seen how some of them reacted to me when I showed up in a masters degree program at age 45. :-)

Would it be fair to say that some of those propaganda artists hated me?

Has a cat got a tail?

That was fun. It would have been more fun if they had let me shoot those idiots, but I guess you can't have everything.

0

Pat Randall 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Tom, My mother used to race in those horse races and won a few. Also roped and tied calves on their ranch. She was the first woman here to drive a car.

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 3 weeks ago

Aha! See that, folks! She comes from a whole family of female troublemakers. :-)

That's great, Pat. I have an image in my mind of the Payson of those days. I never got to see it. I didn't pass through here until 1958, but I will say this: It was VERY different from what we see today. Why even Phoenix was much smaller; it ended at Thomas. Nothing much north of that then.

And you should have seen me get lost in northern Arizona. We were coming out of Kingman on Route 66 headed west. There was a split in the road. There were no signs. The northern fork looked like the main road so I took it. There were no signs for maybe 30 miles. When I saw them I decided I might as well see Boulder Dam. Crossed it and took a road south through the desert to get back on 66. It was a dirt road. Whew! That was the driest, dustiest pice of desert I have ever seen!!

I didn't get a chance to turn aside on my other trips across the country because I had Lolly and the kids with me, and a limited amount of time to get home, say hello to Mom and all, and then proceed on to my new duty station. Sometimes that meant traveling all the way across the country and halfway back, but it was always worth it. For example, when we came back from Okinawa I drove from California to Connecticut, and then all the way back to Ohio, with a 400 mile jog off to Michigan to see my brother Frank.

So we couldn't always turn aside to see this place. I was absolutely floored when I saw Payson again in 1983. It was ten times bigger at least. Maybe 20 times. Whole different place.

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 2 weeks ago

"Allan, There are two different worlds, theirs and ours. (: Ours was and is better."

"Right, you are. :-)"

Wouldn't it be nice if we could get "them" to join us?

"Thanks for the tips, I'll look them up!"

Here are a few links to direct downloads you might find handy to have.

• The Federalist Papers

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1404

• The Writings of Thomas Paine

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3741

• The Journal of the Debates in the Convention (James Madison)

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40861

• The Life of George Washington, Vol. 1 by John Marshall (Chief Justice of the Supreme Court)

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18591

Vol 2.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18592

Vol 3

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18593

Vol 4

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18594

• The Papers And Writings Of Abraham Lincoln

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3253

• The Fathers of the Constitution: A Chronicle of the Establishment of the Union 1921

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3032

• The Spirit of American Government 1920

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/28067

Or, if you want to see what it was like back in Roman days.

• "De Bello Gallico" and Other Commentaries by Julius Caesar 49 BC

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10657

Or in Plato's time.

• The Republic by Plato 380 BC

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1497

(And 45,452 more on any subject you want. Totally free, on your computer where you can read them, reread them, carry them with you anywhere, and copy and paste from them any time you want.)

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Thanks, Tom.

I have several of these already; but I'd like to get the rest though!

And, some of these, I've never heard of. Looks like a treasure trove.

Thanks, again.

Allan

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 2 weeks ago

You're welcome.

Have you ever noticed that the minute someone sees, or finds, something good he or she runs right out and shows it to someone else? Like — say — a great sunset, or literally anything?

I wonder if that's natural, or if it's cultural, or what? I've been trying to remember a time when I was overseas and someone from another country did that, but I can't.

The closest I can come is one day while Lolly and I were in England. Instead of the miserable foggy, rainy spring we usually got we were getting a nice warm one.

We were in a little grocery shop in Bicester.

Lolly turned to an English woman as they were picking out some tomatoes and said, "My! Isn't this some weather?"

The reply?

"Yes! If it doesn't rain soon I shall have to water my roses!"

:-)

0

ALLAN SIMS 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Now, that is typically British, judging from the ones I've met. Good people, but ... :-)

And, no, I've never met any other nationality who has that inclination in their makeup.

Although I have to admit that the English poets obviously felt some of that, to have written so admirably.

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 2 weeks ago

That's true, Allan. Every time I read a book, fiction or nonfiction, written by a Brit it invariably waxes poetic over the english countryside. Every single time! They just love that old isle of theirs! And good for them! It bothers me when I hear people carping about their homeland. I don't understand it.

As to that bit about "water my roses," you would not believe how different things are over there where water is concerned. You would think that with all the water they have — about ten million inches of rain a year, isn't it? :-) — there's be no thought given to such things, but that's not the way it is. Not at all.

When we first landed in England and found a place in Cropredy, a small town just north of Banbury where Charles II fought the battle of Cropredy Bridge, and where the town clock in the church steeple (which I used to help wind every Saturday) was running at the time of the battle, I went outside one day to hook up a hose and wash something or other.

Guess what? No hose connection.

I asked my next door "neighbour" about it and his eyebrows went so high they were on the back of his neck. "But no!" he said breathlessly. "A hosepipe connexion? Why you'd have an increase in your rates." (Rates being the county taxes, which were collected monthly.)

I found out that if I wanted to use a hose it had "properly to be attached" to the faucet in my kitchen sink. "Else you will pay a terrible rate, Yank!" I don't think there are ten outdoor hose connections in the whole of England. :-)

I can see why. Just the moisture from the fog is enough. You could wring ten gallons out of your wash in the morning if you hung it outside. Instead, you use the British clothes dryer — a "drying closet," which is a small square closet that is open at the bottom and top (to where I never found out) and has shelves made of dowels. You just lay the wet clothes the on them.

And the water pressure in your house? Comes from a small, square, ten gallon tank in your attic, where the water is pumped from the street and then flows by gravity.

And your sinks and whatnot, except for the toilet, do not connect directly to the sewer line; they flow outside to a pipe, which is open at the bottom and stands above a catch basin, into which the water flows, and from there to the sewer line.

I wanted to put a shelf over my garage door, so I went out and bought some two by fours. Much to my amazement, they measured two inches by four inches "...precisely of course, Yank. Else how would one plan a building task?"

I went into a shop to buy some "shellac." The clerk took me down in the basement and showed by a wooden box full of large broken bits of shiny stuff. It took a while, but we finally settled on, "Oh, you must mean shellac knotting!"

And I did. Over there, shellac is used to paint over knots in wood so that the resin doesn't weep through the varnish. I do not know what you do with shiny broken bits of stuff.

(next, a typical UK event)

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 2 weeks ago

One of the men in my ouftit, a 35 year old from Chicago, landed at Heathrow and went to London to catch a train to Bicester, the nearest town to RAF Upper Heyford. The lady behind the counter asked his destination. Bicester is pronounced to rhyme with blister.

The GI said, "I need a tickit for BUYCESTER NORTH (that's what his orders said).

"You mean Bistah."

"Yeah, BUYCESTER NORTH."

"You mean Bistah."

"Yeah, BUYCESTER NORTH."

"You mean Bistah."

"Well," he said to us as he was relating his experience in total amazement the next day, "I figured this broad wuzn't never gonna gimme a ticket unless I said it right, so I says, 'Yeah, Bista,' and she gimme the tickit."

One day my sister-in-law, Betty, was talking about Tutankhamun, who is usually pronounced TOOT'N COMMON by the Brits.

She said (incorrectly), "Did you know that Tutankhamun was black?"

One of the other British ladies at the table, in total shock, said, "NEVAH! Tootin Common is GREEN!"

"Tooting Common," that is, a circle in London.

Talk about The British being British. The most radical socialist in the UK is more conservative about everyday things than Barry Goldwater on his best day. :-)

Gotta love them though.

0

Pam Mason 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Tom when you talk about the hose pipe connection and using the kitchen tap (faucet) it reminded me that when I moved to the Phoenix area I was surprised that there were no gutters in the street. Couple of hot summer months later I knew exactly why ... no rain!

Having been partly raised in the London area, I could not wait for school holidays to begin so I could stay with my Aunt who lived in the country. Auntie Poppy used to laugh when I would say "all I can see from my window is chimney pots and chimney pots" When my firstborn was just a baby I moved to Bicester for a year, and I was so happy to be back in the countryside. Yes, Tom it is a small world!

First day out with my baby in the pram I walked into town and the local butcher wearing a blue striped apron actually doffed his traditional straw hat as I approached him on the pavement (sidewalk) We smiled and wished each other good morning and I thought to myself how nice to be back among courteous and friendly people. That's why as soon as I retired, I left Phoenix for the Rim Country, and I have no regrets. For me it's lovely to see more trees, experience a little of the four seasons and live among some really nice people.

0

Tom Garrett 7 months, 2 weeks ago

"When my firstborn was just a baby I moved to Bicester for a year, and I was so happy to be back in the countryside. Yes, Tom it is a small world!"

Wow! You know Bicester? What a great coincidence. Lolly and I just loved Bicester. We could have shopped just in the base commissary, but we didn't; we used to do a good part of our shopping in Bicester. And some in Oxford, but that was mostly clothing, books, and whatnot.

Ever seen Cropredy? Talk about about a traditional English hamlet. That was it! We lived there for over a year and go to know about a quarter of the people there. I was interested in clocks and watches in those days (repairing or restoring them mostly). I bought a little silver windup watch in Shipton Under Wytchwood which needed a key. I went into Banbury to get one at a watchmaker's shop and lo and behold if I didn't get invited to help wind up the village clock! What fun!

Have you ever read any of John Buchan's books three books where John Hannay was the main character (The Thirty-Nine Steps, Greemantle, and Mt. Standfast)? Alfred Hitchcock made a movie out of The Thirty-Nine Steps. In all three of those books, but especially in Mr. Standfast, John Hannay describes the English countryside better than I have ever seen anyone else do. He is literally in love with the Cotswolds, and so were Lolly and I while we were there.

I learned to paint there and painted some 225 oils, all of which but about a dozen I sold. The rest I couldn't bear to part with. Too many memories.

If anyone wants to see what I painted, or wants to see what that part of England looks like, just go to Google Images, enter Cropredy, or — say — Bourton on Water, and think of yourself living there.

Thanks, Pam.

Brought back a lot of great memories!

0

Requires free registration

Posting comments requires a free account and verification.