Monday March 30, 2015
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Once again, as they did in their handling of the PSWID conflict, our Gila County Supervisors have shown wisdom and understanding. In delaying the approval of the new Dollar General Store until the people of Pine have had time to air their concerns about how the new store should be set up and run, they have shown that they care. We want the store, of course, but we want it on our terms. We live here.
That spot, located as it is "on the northeast side of 87 across from Old County Road," sits across the street from the present filling station, a logical place for commercial zoning and a handy place for local shoppers. And while it may contain little in the way of housing at the moment, that does NOT mean that lighting and other factors which might affect anyone living within the range of that lighting, or those other factors, should not be given every consideration. The whole matter should — in fact must! — be handled properly, and I'm sure that with CBOS running the show it will be.
It feels good to be living in a county that cares about its citizens. It makes me feel that while government may be out of control at other levels it is still responsible to the people here in Gila County.
As most people in Pine and Strawberry no doubt do, I look forward to seeing the Dollar General open. It is something we need, an outlet that carries things we now have to travel all the way to Payson to purchase. It is no fun, and not easy on the budget, to have to climb in a car and drive the winding, twisting 16 miles of 87 to a shop in Payson, sometimes through rain or snow. And as anyone up here will tell you, paying three bucks for something and driving back home knowing full well that on top of that three bucks you just paid, you spent at least another three bucks for the gas to make the trip.
How much better to be able to shop here in Pine.
That's why Cindy's place does so well. She has adopted the Walmart approach — offer a decent price in a rural market, hold your ground on prices even when times are slow, offer a reliable service to residents who otherwise would have to drive miles to get what they need, make products available right in their own backyard, and make a living doing it. That's free enterprise at its best.
It's what all our small stores and restaurants do up here in these two small towns plastered up against the Colorado Rim. It's why we support them in a joint effort to make our lives as good as they can be at a time when things done two thousand miles on Wall Street and in DC are making it rough for all of us.
So a Dollar General? Sure! Great!
But on our terms, not theirs.
Thanks again, CBOS!
I posted this on another string before I saw this posting.
I absolutely support the decision of the Board of Supervisors to delay and reconsider the planning and zoning change for the property until July.
"Gould said the county posted notices and held a community meeting last month at the county facility east of Star Valley."
The link above is for the Gila County Community Planning and Zoning notices of Agendas and Minutes. The website does not have an agenda posted for the Planning and Zoning meeting that was held on May 15, 2014.
It would appear that the legal notice announcing the P and Z meeting was printed in the Arizona Silver Belt, Globe publication, on May 14, 2014 as referenced in a document submitted by P and Z. It is possible that the legal notice was published more than once although it does not say so, but even then how many of us would check legal notices printed in Globe?
Even our own Board of Supervisor Tommie Cline Martin was not aware of what was being proposed. Given my inability to find an agenda posted on the official P and Z website all adds up to a very sloppy and inadequate effort to notify the citizens of Pine and Strawberry about a matter than concerns us deeply.
Some of my concerns are that the Dollar General store in Payson opened in Feb 2005
and closed in May 2007 operating for barely two years. We were advised that they would employ between 6-10 people they employed 5-6 people. Size of the proposed building itself 9,100 sq. feet probably the same as that in Payson. If the population of Payson could not support such a store then is the customer base in Pine and Strawberry sufficient to support such an enterprise? Ponderosa Market is a locally owned and operated business and as such is a part of the community, whereas a large conglomerate based in Goodlettsville, Tenn. is not. We know that our population swells in the summertime and in the winter it can be hard for some in business to survive. In fact I know of at least one that closes for the winter months. Given the drop in population and sales in the winter will the corporation take that into account when reviewing the bottom line?
If the sales are not there then do we want to see an empty shell of a box store as we enter Pine? There are a lot of other issues to be considered but these are a few that spring to mind.
Sorry Tom, I have to disagree strongly. No Dollar Stores, No Dollar General. No way!! Can you imagine the Traffic, Noise, Crime & what it would do to the Wildlife? We need to support the local businesses! No big box empty shell Buildings like in Payson when it fails! What about the Garbage, Transients and unwanted attention? We do not need this here in our quaint town. If they want to build one, go to Camp Verde, or Winslow. Sorry folks, I have to say NO. Heck we can not even get to the Post Office or Market on Holiday Weekends as it is now. If we really need something, we can go to the local Market, or the Thrift Store, or patronize places like the Early Bird. And of course, we can always borrow from the Neighbor. :-)
My 2 cents. I agree that the CBOS made the right decision in the short term. Having done that, it appears they also uncovered and exposed some "irregularities" in the way Planning and Zoning is keeping those they serve and work with, informed.
As to Dollar General itself, unlike the name implies they are NOT like the Dollar Tree in Payson next to Basha's. Dollar General closed in Payson partially due to them NOT being a $1 store, and their competition (WalMart and the other "dollar stores" had them for lunch so to speak). I cannot argue with all your "pluses" that would come with some type of "General Store" in Pine/Strawberry even though I sense it would portend more negatives as others have eluded to, than those pluses you mentioned. Personally, I will voice my thoughts when given the opportunity as regards the zoning change, but will also live with the eventual outcome so long as it has the majority support of the residents of these two hamlets.
Ron, I'm with you. I take a wait-and-see attitude.
My only interest in all this is that if a store comes here it should primarily offer merchandise that we need and can't get now. More importantly it must NOT interfere with any person's quiet enjoyment of his home. And the people up here must know about it beforehand and have plenty of time to voice their feelings about those two very important issues. If those three things happen I don't much care whether the store opens or not.
As i said in the first place, I strongly believe it was the right thing when CBOS delayed approval until the people of Pine and Strawberry have had time to lay down some rules. As to how P&Z operates? Sorry, I know nothing about that. And I don't really see this as a North County versus South County issue either because all three of our supervisors agreed with a delay. I was glad to see them all on the same page.
Beyond that, if we really believe in private enterprise I suppose we have to let people take a shot at making a living by offering us something they believe we both need and want. What other motive could they have? Besides, if a new store adds something we haven't got maybe the people who own weekend places will come up here more often. That would help our other businesses. I'd be all for that. But those are opinions, which are like ears — everyone has a couple.
I will say, though, that I'm a little puzzled. Is there something I am missing? Why are we singling out a general store? I don't quite get it. I haven't seen anyone arguing against the long series of eating places and trinket shops that have come and gone over the years.
My comment on anything beyond that? I have no axe to grind in this issue. If the people who want to open the store are wrong about whether or not it will succeed, the only people who will suffer are the people who invested their time and money. And hey, it's their time and their money! If they want to invest it in Pine and Strawberry — doing it our way though! — let them. What do we stand to lose?
I'll just add one more thing, and only because of this sentence:
"Ponderosa Market is a locally owned and operated business and as such is a part of the community..."
The Ponderosa Market is a fixture of Pine. It serves us well. Hear me loud and clear, if I thought for one moment the new store would change that I would be unalterably opposed to it.
Tom, my understanding is that it is a California developer that lives in Scottsdale part time that wants to build the building, then lease it out. He SAYS he has a 15 year lease on it now. He SAYS the reason the Dollar General went out of business in Payson is because WalMart was built and put them out of business. He SAYS he has ADOT's blessing and he SAYS he has done an economic study of the area. HE doesn't give a hoot about Pine/Strawberry - just putting up a box which the two communities cannot support. I went into that store when it was in Payson and it was just overpriced junk.
I just look at that empty store in Payson and how much of an eyesore it is. Imagine this greeting people to our community. We have the hardware store, Ponderosa Market, the Thrift store, and a multitude of antique/resale shops. Basically, we have our bases covered. We are used to going to Payson on a once-a-week or more basis to do banking, pick up prescriptions, and various other sundries. We do NOT need a General Dollar store here. Period.
I cannot see how a store like the Dollar General can possibly make a go of it in Pine/Strawberry. Don't most, if not all, stores in Pine/Strawberry depend on "tourist" income in order to make a profit. I don't see how any "tourist" would stop at a store like Dollar General. Why drive 100 miles for an cheap something you can find in the Valley?
This incident reminds me of another that happened several years ago. Do any of you remember when, was it a door factory or something like that was supposed to open in Pine. People were upset, I think because the process used a lot of water. I wish I could remember more particulars. Come on guys, help me out.
There is a business at the airport in Payson named the Door Stop.
It is in an industrial area and they manufacture, do not do retail sales.
One person hears something but by the time it gets to the 5th person it is an entirely different story.
Here you go Bernice.
Door Stop Adds Pine To Property Search List. May 14, 2001
Source; Payson Roundup
The owner of the Door Stop lives in Pine if they haven't moved.
Has had a place there for many years.
Jane, you seem to be posting more often these days. Are you here full time now? How are you handling the quiet after — was it Scottsdale? — and all the traffic down in the Valley? That was one of the first things I noticed when I came up here: Peace and quiet.
Both in Phoenix, where I lived for only three years till we sold our brand new beautiful home and headed for the East Valley, and in our smaller, better, and also brand new place in Mesa, if you stepped outside night or day you could hear the constant roar of traffic in the distance. It wasn't loud, but it wasn't what I wanted to hear either.
Pat, you're right about the Door Stop. It was way back in 2001, even before Lolly became ill, that they wanted to come here.
You too, Pam. They would have been a nice addition to Pine, I think, because as I remember it they are a manufacturing company which is not water intensive. (Doesn't mean that Bernice isn't right about the water; it's just how I remember it.)
We could use a little anchor business to add to employment in Pine or Strawberry without adding to water use. It would do a lot of good for all the local businesses, especially during the cold weather because we'd have more full time residents. But there's always a downside. In 2004, if I have the date right, some people near the Door Stop complained about noise and that became an issue for while.
People used to complain about the noise at the gravel yard near the creek, but I never did. It breaks my heart to see grass growing on those piles over there. The people who caused the housing crash got away with murder. They caused a worldwide recession and walked away laughing. They hurt a lot of people and a lot of honest business people like the Randalls.
As to the coming of the general store, I think that everything that can be said has been said. With CBOS doing its job I'm not concerned one way or the other.
That's a nice feeling, isn't it?
Tom, I left for the winter and stayed with my mother. I wouldn't move back to Scottsdale if someone held a water pistol to my head and promised me unlimited free water. They drive like maniacs down there, and EVERYONE has a cell phone glued to their ear. Altho I do miss the restaurants.
Whether or not the General Dollar is built, I agree that the county is showing us some respect. It all felt so dam sneaky the way they went about it, like it was just going under the radar to get rubber stamped. I'm delighted we will have an opportunity to express our concerns and that the CBOS is going to hear us out on this.
It's such a huge thing, for or against it, that they LISTENED to us and postponed it so that we could be heard. I have a feeling there will be an enthusiastic turn out, and Mr. Woodring needs to be prepared to accommodate our concerns. :::I was going to bring a bucket of tar and some feathers, but thought better of it::::
My reason for bringing up the door factory incident was simple. I wanted to point out that (again if I remember correctly) the factory ran into some opposition with opening up in Payson. Then Pine was discussed as a location. After some halalaboo the factory opened up in Payson. Could it be that the Dollar General is just using the Pine proposal in order to make its chance of opening a store in Payson more possible.
Afterall, the previous Dollar General store is still vacant.
Tom, all the crap about the noise at the Door Stop was some sore heads that probably wanted their private runway to be extended. My husband and I went up and parked across the street, left the windows down and could barely hear a sound from the Door Stop Carried on a conversation for about a half hour.
The night there was such a hulabaloo at the council over it, the council approved another subdivision that joined the property of the Door Stop. Go figure.
Main St. in Payson has a lot of antique and junk stores too, but I never see any tourist or anyone else stopping on Main except to buy plumbing at Bud's Plumbing, car repair or carpet stores. After 5 pm it is a dead st. I remember when there were lots of business and places to eat. Not anymore, and won't be until they let someone do something with the Oxbow.
Fine, does anyone have any opinion about the possibility of opening a Dollar General store in Pine simply being a ruse to get a more desirable position in negotiations for opening that store in Payson?
If they wanted a store in Payson there are at least two very nice vacant buildings on the highway they could probably buy real cheap. Right zoning and everything.
"My reason for bringing up the door factory...."
Interesting thought. Who knows?
Pat, as far as I can tell the Door Stop has been a beneficial addition to Payson. It creates jobs, makes a good product, has a good reputation, earns money for its owners, and pays its taxes. Payson could use a few more businesses like that. So could Pine if anyone would care to come up here and start one away from the center of town and where it would not trouble residents. If someone were to come here and open a place that hired 15 or 20 people it would change this place for the better without changing our way of life. That will never happen, and it's all off the mark where the current discussion is concerned.
As for Main Street, although, like the Door Stop, this too is off the subject, the plan for Main Street seems to be dead issue. To be honest, I never thought it would amount to anything. It looked like a high-flown idea from someone with big dreams, but no sense of reality. Main Street is no longer a main street; its a side street. With so much of Payson's business depending on a location along the main route through town, it seems like it will always be impossible to turn Main Street into any kind of Mecca.
Bernice, once again, regarding your second comment on the Door Stop et al, interesting thought. But as I said once before in this string, "My comment on anything beyond that? [Meaning anything beyond the issue of the effect of any new store on current merchants and any residents near it.] I have no axe to grind in this issue." I'll stick with that, and leave speculation to others.
Frankly, I am amazed at all the flack when no one has said a word about the new store competing with anything we already have, costing us money in some way, using too much water, or creating traffic problems like the Strawberry Festival did this weekend (with my blessing, by the way!). If that's true, and if CBOS is on the ball regarding other problems such as lighting issues and so on, I don't plan to say much.
As you know, my reason for starting this string was not to talk about the Dollar General per se. I just used the tenor of the meeting of the county supervisors when they considered the Dollar General to point out that I was happy that CBOS was working so smoothly. As I see it, thats vital to the whole county. We need to stay united, one county with one set of goals, doing what is best for the whole country and staying away from anything which tends to divide us.
We've sure come a long way from that original thought. :-)
"no one has said a word about the new store competing with anything we already have"
Tom, I was writing something up about that and lost it :-( Anyhow products would be offered from some of the following manufacturers. Proctor & Gamble, Kimberly-Clark, Unilever, Kellogg's, General Mills, Nabisco, Hanes, PepsiCo and Coca-Cola. Items that we can currently buy in our communities either from the two stores in Pine and the one in Strawberry.
As a side note lease or not, three newly constructed Dollar General stores were sold by Southwest General Development in Tucson last year for $1.47 million, $1.535 million and $1.79 million. (source: Real Estate Daily News 6/20/13) Even at a lower price I wonder would the business generated by our two small communities generate enough of a consistent rate of return? Okay I'm done :-)
. I think it would be good for Pine. Sales tax, jobs and it won't be open at night so why worry about lights? It won't create any more tourist traffic. A place to buy things you don't have now and save a trip to Payson. I didn't hear all this complaining when a bar was put in on the corner of Hardscrabble and the highway for drunks. It always seems busy when I come to Pine to check on my home there.
"I didn't hear all this complaining when a bar was put in on the corner of Hardscrabble and the highway for drunks. It always seems busy when I come to Pine to check on my home there."
Want to hear a funny story about that place? This will crack you up. Someone was doing some construction work in there during the day not too long ago. He came out to go somewhere and was stopped by a Sheriff's deputy. When he asked why in the world he had been stopped he was told, "You've been in there a long time."
He told the deputy he was sorry, but the job he was working on was fairly large and he wasn't finished yet. :-)
"Items that we can currently buy in our communities either from the two stores in Pine and the one in Strawberry."
I started this string about CBOS, and so this whole thing about the Dollar General has had me confused, Pam. But your last comment at last sheds some light on the subject.
Now I get it! I must be getting slow in my old age.
I just could not make sense out of some of the comments; like the conspiracy theory that the Door Stop was really trying to open a store in Payson. Or all the concern about whether or not they would be able to make it. Or the comment about the color of their sign. Some of the other comments.
But if the real source of the flack is worry about competition with stores that are already here then all the flack is at last understandable.
By the way, is the store in Strawberry open again? I thought it was still closed.
Sorry, Jane. I missed your comment at first because you inserted it back where I asked the question. You'll find that people sometimes miss what you say if you do that. They usually just scroll down to the end of a string and look at comments after yesterday's last post.
Anyway, glad you're up here, and I agree about the Valley. Remember the comment made by the doctor as he looked at the smoking wreck of the train at the end of The Bridge on the River Kwai?
Describes Valley traffic perfectly.
I'm glad you agree that CBOS is doing the right thing.
As for the tar and feathers, you're a couple of years too late. I needed them back when I personally took Brooke Utilities before the ACC and met Hardcastle in person. :-)
Community Meeting in Pine on June 25th at 1:30 at the Cultural Hall. There is a notice in the Ponderosa Market. I still say No Dollar General or any type of Business that will ruin our Little Town, despite the GCBOS looking out for us! Sorry, guess I see no need when there are two vacant places in Payson that need tenants, and can house a Dollar Store/Shop/General or whatever.
Sorry....meant to state CBOS
I give up. No conspiracy theory. No attack on any business. Sometimes a written discussion simply doesn't work because you aren't face to face.
Maybe you have no need for the Dollar Store but you are not Queen of Pine making decisions where people should shop or what for. With the price of gas seems to me people would want more shopping places there. Not everyone buys the same thing so they need a variety of places to shop. I remember when there was one little store there about 40. ft by 40 ft. if that big and I believe the P.O was in there also. Be thankful for what you have and don't begrudge the rest of the people a choice of where to shop.
Did you ever stop to think did people in Pine want you when you moved there?
"...and I believe the P.O was in there also."
You just reminded me of two charming traditions we saw over in England while I was there — the village post office and the naming of those villages.
The base where we were stationed was called RAF Upper Heyford. The village was Upper Heyford. There was another village right there named Lower Heyford.
Lolly and I used to love visiting all the tiny little villages, with their equally tiny little shops: Bourton On The Water, Bourton on the Hill, Upper Slaughter, Lower Slaughter, Chipping Norton, Shipton under Wychwood.
And in all those tiny little shops? A tiny little "post office" — a cage at one end of the store.
Pat, You seemed so easily offended and that was not my intent. Just wanted to voice an opinion and make a comment as well. Never said I was designating where people should or should not shop. Again, just voiced my opinion as you did also. I agree with Bernice & I give up. Things get too complicated when one makes an innocent statement. I think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. By the way, try to smile and have a great weekend!
Thought maybe some Readers may want to check out the Letters to the Editor section of the Roundup. There, People may find a Letter drafted by a Local Couple strongly voicing their opinion on the Zoning issue at hand in Pine concerning the Dollar General. I feel that Letter makes it clear, definitively, how they feel. I think I offended a Reader of yours by an Opinion I made, and the Letter I am referring to in the Letters to the Editor section of the Roundup is more of what that Reader was commenting on to me. I never designated, by any means, where People should or should not Shop. Just voiced an Opinion. But, I do have a Fantastic Idea that may be the solution to everything including the Zoning Issues that I will reveal at the meeting on June 25th. I agree that CBOS is looking out for what is best for our area, and I think I may have just found the solution!
" I think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that."
Sometimes that's the way a discussion ends.
Thank you, Tom. As I stated on another post I made, lesson learned! :-)
In my opinion. Every one in Pine and Strawberry would probably like another store but not in my back yard. Get a grip ladies there will be more stores moving into Pine. One good thing about it, no one tells you where you have to shop.
As I see it, Pine is lucky that it has what amounts to a "business area" on highway 87 running through its center, just as Payson did in the old days, and just as many small towns do when they start. Sure, there are a few restaurants and small shops off to one side, but they seem to fit in well enough.
Someone once educated me where real estate values are concerned by telling me "location, location, and location." And it's true, but I sometimes see some crazy exceptions made to that rule. Look at Ray's "new" storage shed location (the old one is back of his realty place). He put it right across the street from his own house. Had he tried doing that with someone else's house across the street there would have been a flood of complaints, wouldn't there? And someday, long after all of us are history, someone will be trying to sell that house and the client will say, "With all that noise and traffic right across the street? No way!"
Life is like that. It's based on motives and perceptions.
You want to know the best thing about Pine and Strawberry? They aren't incorporated so we don't have to pay a lot of "civil servants" to tell us what we can't do. And yet....
And yet we have more political flack here than I saw as a kid when I lived in New York City where there will 7 million people at the time, which made 7 million reasons for trouble. But that was before the day of over-controlling politicians like Bloomberg, who should be put in a bag and dropped in the Hudson River.
You know who we had for an absolutely beloved mayor of New York when I was a kid?
You may find this hard to believe!
From 1934 to 1945 we elected and re-elected a short, fat Italian Jew Republican named Fiorello LaGuardia. His way of governing was simple: Listen to what people say they want and try to give it to them — if the city can afford it. And if not, tell them so! One day, when for some reason the newspapers were not being delivered, he got on the radio and read the funnies to the kids. I will never forget that high pitched squeaky voice saying, "He-e-er'es DicK Tracy!" His first name meant "little flower," and he was the oddest little guy I ever saw, but he could tear some idiot over-controlling, vote selling politician like Bloomberg limb from limb if he had to — and sometimes did.
I swear — and I am not kidding — that little neighborhood on Staten Island was beyond argument THE most peaceful place I ever lived. People just lived their lives and let others live theirs. And the "others" were rich, poor, and middle class; Protestant, Jew, and Catholic; white, black, and whatever; English, Irish, German, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, French, Spanish, and every other pure-bred or dip-wide-and-mix-well group that has ever walked the planet.
Figure that one out. :-)
UPDATE Planning and Zoning Case No. Z-14-01
A Planning and Zoning meeting to gather public input was held in Pine at the Cultural Hall last evening. The topic was a request to rezone a parcel of land to Commercial Two (C2) Public at large were opposed to a Dollar General store being built. The applicant Mr. Woodring withdrew his request for a change in zoning towards the end of the meeting.
Correction: Meeting was held in the afternoon ..... another senior moment!!
Welcome to the group. :-)
I am far from being easily offended.
If no one needs anything from a Dollar Store you don't need to worry about traffic.
What does a Dollar Store have to do with wildlife and crime?
The zoning will be changed there within 2 yrs. Dollar Store or not. Anyone care to bet on it? And it will be for something more objectionable. Or maybe you all want another bar at the entrance to town.
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