Thursday December 5, 2013
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Roundup: Committee scrambling for ideas to keep airport independent 8-19-2011
This quote from the airport news article pretty well sums up everything> "Payson saw it as a way to save money and airport users could finally run the airport how they wanted."
Screw the citizens of Payson who's taxes pay for the airport. It's a private club for the local aircraft hobbyists and small private aviation businesses. They will determine how best to spend our tax dollars for their wants and pleasure.
There must be something you like about Payson or you wouldn't still be here.
The Airport committee has been doing good things at the airporet and have been able to pay lease money so the town thinks they need too take it back. Don't they have brains enough to realize the rent will stop and they will have to hire people?
They want to hire another airport manager, what does Beth Meyers the airport supervisor do?
We had an airport manager a few years ago and you saw what happened. Remember Ted A?
Maybe Payson believes there really is 40,000 landings and takeoffs a year or whatever the ridiculous number was.
A good non pilot business man would be good on the board. You don't need all pilots.
It was reported there was a waiting list for hangers so if the committee gets them built should not be a problem to fill them and collect more money.
Payson has enough to do getting their water fall, event center covered and a college built.
I must have missed it. Can someone tell me what the Payson Town budget for the Airport was last year and what it is this year?
"Screw the citizens of Payson who's taxes pay for the airport. It's a private club for the local aircraft hobbyists and small private aviation businesses. They will determine how best to spend our tax dollars for their wants and pleasure."
Perhaps I may enlighten you as to the needs that the Payson Airport meets for the general populace of Payson.
On a daily basis, planes fly in and out carrying checks, etc for local banks and businesses.
The medi-flight helicopters fuel up, and periodically base there.
During fire season, fire observation planes, and helicopters, as well as fire fighting planes and helicopters are based at the Payson Airport 24/7.
There are a number of physicians, as well as local business people, who fly in and out on a daily basis. Perhaps because they have businesses or offices elsewhere, and it is more expedient for them to fly.
A couple of groups affiliated with the airport, (EAA, Young Eagles, etc.) work very hard to put on air shows and air fairs, providing free or very inexpensive plane rides. These rides are provided by the "local aircraft hobbyists and small private aviation businesses" at a fairly substantial cost to themselves. They provide their aircraft, for which they pay, as well as: insurance, maintenance, fuel, parking or hangaring, and their time.
While I suppose that it is a lack of knowledge on the part of the general populace to assume that in light of the fact that they have no direct link to the airport, then it serves them no purpose. It is rather shortsighted to not recognize that a small isolated mountain town depends a great deal upon the airport.
Pat makes some very valid points, there have been power struggles between the town and Airport Board for years. And there have been issues of mis-management. However, that is a situaton that is not unique to the airport, nor is it unique to Payson.
No disrespect Kim, but all of what you said has been thrown up as a justification as to how the local hobby airport generates tons of income for the town. Baloney. 40,000 aircraft a year landing and taking off? Paaaaleeese. Does that include the crows? Affluent doctors flying into work. So what. If it wasn't profitable for them to do it, they wouldn't. Same goes for the bank flights, air ambulance etc. You know the overwhelming majority of airport use is by aviation hobbyiest, period. I really have no problem with the airport or it's operations at this time. I just don't like the Fox's running the hen house on my dime. Lack of knowledge on the part of the public is kind of an insult. We just want the most bang for our bucks being spent up there and a voice in what is or is not to be done. Not just to please the wants of the pilots association, plane owners, and business owners up there. Pat, your red herring comment about me not liking Payson is a hoot. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't be trying to Change it for the better. Now run with that comment. :0)
Don, to be honest with you, I am unaware of from whom the number of 40,000 came. therefore, I will not address that.
I will however, address your...almost sounds like resentment? That a profit is being made by people affiliated with, and users of, the Payson Airport.
Let me ask you a question: When you worked for LAPD, and later, when you worked for Gila County Probation, did you do so for free? That is, were you looking to make a profit? You know...a salary?
Furthermore, I don't have to "throw up" a "justification" for "how the local hobby airport generates tons of income for the town." I never intimated that the airport makes a profit for the town. I stated that the airport provides a much needed service for the town. Big difference!!
Believe me, Mr. Evans, should you or your wife ever have need of the medical flight helicopter, you will not care whether it is a "profit making enterprise" or a "much needed service". And, if your neighborhood is ever threatened with fire that requires a water or chemical drop from the air, well, see the previous comment.
As for the "affluent doctors flying into work", see if you can get your mind behind the fact that there are doctors flying in for a day of office appointments here in town, that provide a service for which many people in town would have to drive all the way to Phoenix, or forgo that particular service. Of course, I am certain that said doctors are making a profit. Isn't that the goal of life? To make enough money to live comfortably? Would that we could all do all things altruistically and money were not an issue.
You say, "You know the overwhelming majority of airport use is by aviation hobbyiest, period." No, Don, I "know" no such thing! What I "know" is that there are several businesses located on the airport which pay substantial amounts of revenue to the town, county, state, and Feds. What I "know" is that whether the Town, or the Airport Board, is running the airport, "you" will most assuredly not have a "voice in what is or is not to be done".
Lastly, isn't it ironic that the "change" that each of us wants is the one and only one that is for the better, because, of course, each of us has the best ideas and everybody else is trying to "ruin" the town? Or make it another California?
Your comment, " If I didn't like it I wouldn't be trying to change it for the better."
People don't change things if they like them.
How many committees have you been on, and how many things have you volunteered for?
Or is your big contribution using the keyboard on your computer?
Ok Pat, there are some things that I DON'T like that Payson has historicly done. But it'is slowly progressing into the 21st century, and I am ok with that. I have no desire to sit on somebodys buddy committee and listen to my own and everybody elses hot air. And Kim, for me I have found that posting my opinions on here and a few good letters being published in the paper over time on various issues, did more to generate debate and interest in my sugestions than any other venue. As far as my voice and other like minded people effecting change, we were pretty instrumental in CHANGING the old approach and departure flight pattern. Our neighborhoods even developed a web site to explain our positions and ideas about the past airport operations. The first early old web site was http://www.geocities.ws/loudplanes/ There was a newer more detailed web version but I think it expired, I can't find it now. All the best.
Don, I find it amusing, as well as particularly naive of you to really believe that
"we were pretty instrumental in changing the old approach and departure flight pattern."
Your little group may have made enough noise, and created enough consternation for the Airport that they took up the situation with the FAA and in accordance with safety procedures and regulations, affected the change in patterns. However, had it not been in the best interests of the pilots, the airport, and safety for all, a small group of citizens could have bleated until the cows came home, and no change would have been made.
What perplexes me...if you, or someone, doesn't like airplanes, or airplane noise, why in the world would one buy a home that is under or within a flight path? That is like saying, I want to live in the forest but I don't like trees or wildlife. Mr. Evans, the airport was in place long before many of the homes were built in this town. For someone to deliberately buy a home that is within the flight path and then belly ache and complain and form committees to get that flight path changed is ridiculous. And if the argument is that somoene was not aware that the home is within the flight path, well then it is that persons fault that they spent so little time at the property, that they did not ascertain that. Furthermore, it is not the fault of the airport, it is the fault of the realtor or the previous homeowner who did not disclose that information to the potential buyer.
I still stand by my original reply. Our airport provides several much needed services for this town and regardless of whether someone has an immediate or obvious need or use for them does not negate the fact that they exist.
Oh, and Pat? I love your comment. So true. If you like something, why try so hard to change it? And if you do want to effect change, get involved in a committee, or run for office, rather than bleat and complain and write letters and make calls and pound your keyboard.
When I first moved here, I wanted to understand local politics and goings on, so I volunteered, joined several groups, and was an active participant in the town. I learned what I wanted and was thus able to determine how involved I wanted to be in order to be a part of the progress of the town and for the betterment of myself.
Can you imangine how I felt when I came back to my home town to live after being away for many years? Left in 1952 came back in 1993?
You didn't need to lock your doors, worry about your kids, listen to people gripe about everything they thought was wrong. One school house for 12 grades that is still standing. One old fire truck parked on a small hill so it could be rolled off and started. Main St. was really Main St.
One Dr. that was always available. Neighbors helped neighbors didn't have thier hand out to the govt. to take care of them. Kids entertained them selves, didn't have to have parks, swimming pools or organized sports to be baby sitters. No council sitting up on their little roosts telling the rest of us what we needed. The rodeo was a real rodeo not a bunch of so called entertainment
going on in the arena. Lot more cowboys and fans.
Guess I am really getting old but the good old days were much happier and not so hectic.
People say what we have now is progress. Their opinion.
Well, Pat, Sounds idyllic!!! Although, when I moved here in 1994, Payson seemed like a town forgotten by time. And I had moved here from what had been a very small town when I moved there and grew to be a metropolis that I hated. It breaks my heart to go back and see it, so I go back very rarely!!
Payson is growing at a very rapid rate, which I don't care for, but am not certain, in light of the politicians in place, that we can do anything about it.
Funny story about early Payson...I moved here in Fall of '94. Keep in mind the fashion times back then. That winter, I took my Mom shopping to the old Safeway, where Chapman is now. It was snowing, so I had on a long, very loose sweater, black leggings and boots, as well as a hat, into which my hair was tucked. The only skin showing was my hands and face. As we walked in the door, an elderly woman walked by us, stopped, looked me up and down and spat out, "prostitute"!!! My Mom and I laughed so hard, we cried!!! That is probably one of my funniest memories of Payson.
Same old arguments. Did you know that the entire town is within what is called the airport influence zone. And realtors are legally required to tell you that fact, prior to any residential or land purchase. But you are right, they don't. And they get away with it. The tired old statement the airport (Forest Dept Fire landing strip originally) was here first. So what? Times change, new growth, housing developments and more population. Look at the problems that Luke AFB with housing encroachment. No one is asking for OUR airport to be moved or be closed down. And fyi, our group met with some reasonable local pilot reps who actually came up with the flight pattern changes to accommodate our concerns. The then Airport Mgr presented the agreed upon changes to the FAA, and they were approved. Reasonable minds prevailed on both sides. Again, the airport belongs to all Payson residents, and all should have some say in it's operations and future. It is not the private playground for a few special interest groups to control exclusively and spend our money for their chosen hobby desires.
Why are Realtors always to blame? Don't buyers have eyes and ears? There are 10 or more pages on a listing form that tells everything about the property including has any poisonous insects been seen. Read it or ask questions.
If you can't see or hear any of those 40,000 take off and landings before you buy it shouldn't bother you afterwards.
When the flight pattern was changed did it occur to anyone the planes then went over someone elses house?
A little history. There was also a landing strip where Payson Elem. is now and one where the hospital is located. Imagine that. Three landing strips. And one of the owners of the Oxbow landed his plane in front of the Oxbow on Main St.
The airport was in use long before the FS. fought fires with airplanes from here.
The airport back in the 40's was leased to a couple of Randalls and another man, they flew charter flights. It was a dirt runway.
Also Injured people were flown to Cottonwood hospital as there was no hospital or air evac here at the time.They were flown by whatever pilot may have his airplane at the airport. Usually by a pilot name Dave Davidson.
I had more on here as I have typed it 3 times and lost it 3 times.
Kim, I now understand your feelings about this subject, all the best.
Public site web>
Michael Lee Chittick Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land,
Airplane Multiengine Land Payson AZ (PAN)
Soo... what Don? Because "times change" the airport is supposed to be the one to "suck it up" and make all of the accomodations for the spoiled homeowners?
I thank God that the medevac helicopters fly right over my house, because each time that I hear one, I know that it means that someone is in distress and it gives me an opportunity to stop whatever I am doing and say a prayer for the patient, as well as for the pilot and the medical crew that are assisting that person. And, should the day ever come that the sound of airplanes is so distressing to me that I have to pound my keyboard, and make phone calls, and write letters, and form committees, I would hope that someone will remind me that it is a blessing that I can hear them.
As for the realtors not disclosing information to potential buyers...Pat is correct, doesn't the buyer have some responsibility to research and investigate, question neighbors, spend some time on the block observing?
I must say that I am surprised, pleased, but surprised, that you acknowledge that there are "some reasonable local pilot reps" affiliated with "OUR" airport. Especially since those are the very people that you are calling "aviation hobbyists". Those "local pilot reps" are the ones which support the airport and most of its endeavors. They are the ones who are out there on a regular basis, working on their planes, or cleaning their hangars, or buying av-gas at the fuel shop, or hanging out talking planes and weather and "hundred dollar hamburgers". They are the ones who fly jet liners, or repair them, all week for a living, and then spend their off-time at the Payson Airport, attending safety meetings presented by the FAA, or helping in the fuel shack, or flying little kids around during the airshows. They are the ones who smile and extend sympathy for the poor little kid who pukes in their plane, knowing that they will be the ones cleaning it up. They are the ones who support the Payson Airport, financially, with time, and energy and love of aviation. I apologize if you resent THEM, rather than yourself, having a larger say in how things are done at the airport. I would be willing to bet that when you were a police officer, you did not take kindly to citizens telling you how to do your job. I can almost hear you saying, "Ma'am (or Sir), please step back and allow me to do my job. I can't disclose that to you, but rest assured that we are doing everything we can to..." sound familiar?
I guess on this subject, Don, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. The airport holds a very special place in my heart, for personal reasons, some of which I will not mention, but a big one being that 3 people whom I love very much have been patients in one or another of the medevac choppers. their lives were extended because of that convenience which is available because we have a local airport from which they can be based.
And Pat, thanks again for the great history. I did not know most of that. Fascinating!!
As to your comments, I think that what happens is potential buyers look at a house and forget the fact that they will be living in this house for years to come, and therefore, should be exercising "due diligence" before buying.
Additionally, many people are guilty of the "NIMBY" attitude. They don't care how something affects somebody else, so long as they get what they want and it doesn't affect them.
I guess my attitude goes right back to a comment that I made on another thread, "I was raised with the belief that the world does not revolve around me" and I need to adapt myself to my surroundings and not vice versa.
Okay Don, now you understand. And you have proven that you know how to utilize public resources. Impressive! Although, in truth, you are kind of reaching, aren't you assuming that there is a connection between myself and the person you "found"? In the interest of full disclosure, you are correct, he is my husband.
Although, to be honest, I am certain that you have a special spot in your heart for police departments and/or police officers. And I would be willing to bet that were I to make public comments and/or disparaging remarks about them, you and/or your wife would get protective and defensive. We all have our own "sacred cow." Airports, aviation and pilots are one of mine. Yes, my husband is a pilot. I am proud of him and all of the work that he has completed and continues to undergo to maintain proficiency. What most people fail to realize is that many pilots have spent as many years and as much money as doctors to get to where they wish to be in their chosen field.
For you to refer to these people as "aviation hobbyists" galls me. You would not refer to a police officer as a "law hobbyist", nor to a doctor as a "medical hobbyist", nor to a journalist as a "word hobbyist". Please recognize that each and every one of these people has worked long and hard to get to where they are, they are not playing around. Aviation is a serious business, for some, yes, it can be a hobby as well, although, I refer to it more as a lifestyle.
I appreciate your discourse, as well as your passion. Please forgive me if I find your passion against aviation to be misguided.
Well, I have calmed down enough to write once again without pounding my keyboard into the desk.
Congratulations, Mr. Evans, you have finally achieved something that no one else on this board has managed. You have infuriated me.
First, because, how dare you assume that as a woman I could not possibly have the brains or knowledge, or the passion to love aviation enough to write as I do about it, without having some sort of tie? Let me tell you something Mr. Evans, I loved planes, airports and aviation long before I knew my husband. The fact that he was a pilot when I met him was a very fortunate coincidence and merely added to my fascination. However, I did not need him to introduce me to anything, nor to explain anything to me. And furthermore, he was not behind me coaching while I wrote, encouraging, nor discouraging, As a matter of fact, he knew nothing of this thread until I had to tell him that he had been mentioned on it. By the way...Thank you for that, Mr. Evans.
Secondly, and as a former police officer, I am quite certain that you know exactly of what I speak. You involved my family in a situation with which they had nothing whatsoever to do.
Years ago, Pat Randall and I had a discussion about this very thing. I said that I prefer the anonymous boards, because that way, I was ensured of complete anonymity for my family, and that my opinions were my own and did not reflect on them.
You, yourself have mentioned repeatedly your past as a police office in L.A. and as a probation officer for Gila County. YOU put it out there, I merely addressed it. I never once wondered if all of your passion, and posturing, and forming committees, and taking meetings, was a result of your wife's losing bid as a town council member. Are you a frustrated politician Mr. Evans? Is that why you are quick to jump on the cause bandwagon?
It doesn't feel so good, does it Mr. Evans? Having someone drag your innocent and uninvolved family member into a fray with which they have no part.
My husband has made "keeping a low profile" into an art form, and by your hand, you have put him in the limelight.
In my opinion, Mr. Evans, that was a childish and cowardly act; because you could not come up with a rebuttal that had any more variance than, "same old argument". therefore you had to attack the person, rather than the issue. And, yup, you attacked at the soft underbelly, my husband, which is what brought out my "mama bear claws".
I am well aware that I will probably get kicked off this board for this post, but, I think that your action was childish, cowardly and reprehensible. It was also disappointing, I thought that you were a bigger man than that. Obviously I was grievously wrong.
What was your point? You having a bad day?
Kimmer is probably the nicest and fairest of all people who post on here.
Like her, I am glad we have helicopters here to take out sick and wounded.
My daughter was taken out after having a massive heart attack at 45 yrs old. My husband twice and grandson I think 4 times . Several friends have been saved by air evac.
You are so busy poking in to private affairs, why not tell why you left the O.J. Simpson case or why you moved closer to the airport from Birch St? Was it because a pilot moved into the house across the street from you after I moved out of it?
Sheesh, come on gang, cool it. All of your pontifications about the med air vac services, the bank planes, the fire choppers, I never once said anything about not needing their services. I did once say on a thread some long time ago, that I thought the charges for med vac were outrageous. My whole point on this thread I thought was rather obvious. I think the airport belongs to all of us and we should all have a say so on the finances, the development of it, and it's operations. I have never said on this thread it was bad, should be moved, or pilots are bad people. Kim, you are a very intelligent person and I do respect your opinions. But I thought you were being a little disengenuous in not revealing your close connection to our local Aviation community and posting as one the uninformed public as I think you put it above somewhere. I'm all about making a good profit and anybody else who can by their hard work. My ederly father was air vac'd some time ago from the Payson Hospital Pad. They put him on the gurney, strapped him down, took his blood pressure, flew him to Scottsdale Hosp. They gave him aspirin and released him the next day. The air vac bill was $14,000 for a 15min flight. no life saving procedures were done by the crew. Outrageous INMHO. So I don't know how or why you got the idea I said our Airport should not have those services. Anyway again, I wish you the best. Pat, you missed your calling in comedy. Keep those private emails flying, and all the best to you to, like it or not.
I went back to look but I couldn't find where anyone answered the question of how much tax money Payson was spending on the airport. Is that not relevant to the discussion?
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