The Payson Roundup / Reader Comments: What's really going on with the rodeo?

31 March 2009 at 11:47 a.m.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

I've seen the articles about the rodeo and read what the Mayor, and some others who have now wrested control of the rodeo, have to say, namely that they want the rodeo to “return to its community roots.”

That sounds to me like something called a “glittering generality,” in other words a smooth but meaningless answer to a critical question.

The real question is: Why change it?

Was it unsuccessful?

Did it cost the city money?

Did it drive away tourists?

What was so wrong with the rodeo that it called for a complete change?

If the people making the change can't come up with some mighty good answers to those questions, then something is rotten in Denmark.

What's really going on?

31 March 2009 at 12:41 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Something rotten in Denmark !!!

1 April 2009 at 8:03 a.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

It seems to me some of the newcomers to Rim Country don't like the way things are done here, as usual. So they got together with some of the old-timers to form a new alliance. John Stanton and Dan Haapala were together on KMOG Monday morning, so I asked them who started it. And why. And had anyone thought about merging the two groups, the Pro Rodeo Committee and the alliance.
Who started it? The chamber was mentioned (the board) but no real answer as to who the person was that started it.
Why? Because this year's Rodeo was so important they wanted to make sure it was done right. So I said “then you don't believe the Pro Rodeo Committee was doing it right. Dan said that isn't what he said. I said it was too what he said.
As far as merging, they said the Pro Rodeo Committee hadn't asked to be invited.
Why should the Pro Rodeo Committee be the one to have to ask the alliance???
John Naughton and Cameron Davis are part of the new bunch. Newcomers. They always have better ideas than we do don't they? And the mayor gave the alliance money. Yeah, something is rotten in Denmark and Payson.

1 April 2009 at 11:17 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Why didn't the newcomers join in with the oldtimers that knew what goes on at a rodeo?
I don't know what kind of background Mr. Stanton has but how many rodeos has he even attended?
I believe Cameron said he was raised on a ranch but that doesn't mean he knows how to put on a rodeo. Sure they can hire outside consultants like everything else that is done in Town.
I think the Chamber tried to hire someone to do the rodeo one year and came crawling back asking for help from the Rodeo committee.

For my parting shot. What is the big deal about this year's rodeo.. It really isn't the 125th !!!!
I have better documentation than Stan Brown or the other historians about how old the rodeo is.

1 April 2009 at 12:12 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

To tell you the truth, folks. After reading what you've said I still don't really know what's going on. There must be good reasons why the Mayor wanted to change the rodeo, but he hasn't really stated them. His comment about making it more of a community event is too general. I wish someone would try to explain things a little better, but then there may be some kind of underlying conflict that no one wants to talk about. Beats me.

1 April 2009 at 12:51 p.m.

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Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Maybe it is control of the direction of the town of Payson? Tom, you have to remember the strong feelings during the last election for Mayor and Council positions. The town has always been divided on future goals and this includes whether it will be “A Mountain Town With a Western Heritage” or “”A Cool Mountain Town.” One group wants to hold the steering wheel for everything while the other group likes community participation.

The success of the rodeo depends on the way it is organized and managed and it does seem that past experience certainly has a lot to recommend it !

1 April 2009 at 12:52 p.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Even though no one has said this outright, I'm wondering if the new bunch thinks the old bunch is a little too rough around the edges, maybe a little to wild? I talked to Bill Armstrong and he said he didn't want to talk negative about anyone, and mostly his feelings were hurt, but during the conversation he talked about how they used to be kind of wild, but not anymore. No drinking, and they don't even allow smoking at their meetings. I told him I was sorry to hear that:)
Michael Alexander at www.rimcountry.com still has my Christopher Creek Newsletter posted in his Link section. I would like everyone to got to that and click on “Rodeo Weekend”, and then tell me it wasn't all about community. Look at those photos I took and tell me it's not about community, and then maybe tell the mayor to go look at it, and maybe he will understand he doesn't know what he is talking about.
The article was written before I left Christopher Creek and moved to Payson, about 10 years ago, so these “newcomers” need to do a little research before they start shutting everything down that was done as a labor of love. And done with nothing but the community in mind.

1 April 2009 at 1:10 p.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

There are photos of the rodeo on my website, www.deanshieldsphotos.com. Most of the photos on that page were taken by Dennis Fendler, who is working at the Roundup I believe, not as photographer but in another position.
Ruby, I believe Cameron Davis is the one that put that before the council, changing to “a cool mountain town.” I think it was after mayor Evans said “Less Cowboy, more Indian” in an article in the Roundup. So they left out “Western Flavor” and now they're wanting to hype the rodeo and rodeo week like they never said it.

1 April 2009 at 3:38 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Rodeo schmodeo does anyone realize this is Arizona Bike Week?

http://azbikeweek.com/

2 April 2009 at 7:47 a.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

I knew that :) Channel 3 did a Monday morning makeover on three “bikers”, it was hilarious. I thought they looked better before the makeover.

2 April 2009 at 8:55 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Why was everything so secret about the dealings of the rodeo?
Why did Evans give (according to newspaper) the new rodeo alliance money before they were ever incorporated Why for the NRA so they wouldn't lose the name?
The name is registered with the Arizona Secretary of State.
Is this a conflict of interest?

Seems he stirred the pot on a lot of things before taking his trip to Europe last year and left everyone else to face the music. My opinion.

Now Evans is going to hold a press conference. Will it be a prepared speech with no one allowed to ask questions or state an opinion?

As for the new rodeo alliance, did Evans take all this upon himself or did I miss an agenda and vote of the council?
He was quoted as saying his involvement with what happened with the plans for the August rodeo was on two levels, one being part of the decision not to have the town in charge of the rodeo, and the second, writing the check to the NRA.

We will now be known as a cool mountain town with the oldest rodeo.
Sounds like Prescott to me.

2 April 2009 at 10:11 a.m.

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JohnNaughton (John Naughton) says…

OK Rodeo Fans

From Tom Garrett:
Q. The real question is: Why change it?
A. The rodeo has been losing money for the past number of years.
Q. Was it unsuccessful?
A. See above
Q. Did it cost the city money?
A. The “City” was never involved
Q. Did it drive away tourists?
A. Probably not.
Q. What was so wrong with the rodeo that it called for a complete change?
A. See answer to question #1

From Dean Shields:
Q. so I asked them who started it. And why. And had anyone thought about merging the two groups, the Pro Rodeo Committee and the alliance.
A. The Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors (see #1 under Garrett)
Q. The chamber was mentioned (the board) but no real answer as to who the person was that started it.
A. See answer above.
Q. So I said “then you don't believe the Pro Rodeo Committee was doing it right.
A. The Pro Rodeo Committee always did an outstanding job on the portion of the rodeo they were hired to do and were asked to continue at a reduced fee, see #1 under Garrett.
Q. As far as merging, they said the Pro Rodeo Committee hadn't asked to be invited. Why should the Pro Rodeo Committee be the one to have to ask the alliance???
A. From day one the Pro Rodeo Committee was asked to be a part of this years rodeo.
Q. John Naughton and Cameron Davis are part of the new bunch. Newcomers. They always have better ideas than we do don't they?
A. Newcomers, relatively speaking, yes. Better ideas, no idea is bad.
The alliance is stacked with folks who have been around a long time. Why pick on the two new guys?
Q. (not really a Q. but deserves an answer) And the mayor gave the alliance money.
A. Mayor or not, he can spend his personal income on whatever he chooses.
Q. (another not really a question) I would like everyone to got to that and click on “Rodeo Weekend”, and then tell me it wasn't all about community. Look at those photos I took and tell me it's not about community, and then maybe tell the mayor to go look at it, and maybe he will understand he doesn't know what he is talking about.
A. Exactly! You got it! Bring back the community like it was when you took those shots!

From Pat Randall:
Q. Why was everything so secret about the dealings of the rodeo?
A. You’ve got to be kidding. The whole town knew what was going on. Look who’s on the board of directors and committee chairs. Because you didn’t doesn’t mean it was secret.
Q. Why did Evans give (according to newspaper) the new rodeo alliance money?
A. See last Q/A from Dean Shields
Q. Now Evans is going to hold a press conference. Will it be a prepared speech with no one allowed to ask questions or state an opinion?
A. Are you sure about that? If there is a press conference, doesn’t that infer it’s for members of the press. Film at 11.
Q. As for the new rodeo alliance, did Evans take all this upon himself or did I miss an agenda and vote of the council?
A. No. The Chamber of Commerce board of directors did.

2 April 2009 at 11:36 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Well, we asked a lot of questions.

Looks like we got a lot of answers.

Personally, I did not know that the rodeo was losing money every year. That's an obvious reason for making changes. Why keep on doing something that loses money?

And it would appear that some of us (me) have been laboring under a misaphrehension, namely that the city ran the rodeo. Looks like that was wrong, which explains a whole lot more.

Amazing how a little information changes the entire look of something, but that's why I asked the questions—to get answers.

2 April 2009 at 11:50 a.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Telling someone they are doing an outstanding job and offering them the opportunity to continue at a reduced fee sounds like a brush off to me.

It's all about the benjamins isn't it?

2 April 2009 at 11:54 a.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Pat, what has the NRA got to do with the Payson rodeo?

2 April 2009 at 12:32 p.m.

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JohnNaughton (John Naughton) says…

Shovelhead, you are so right. It is about the benjamins.
In most businesses and organizations in this town and across the country, sacrifices are being made for survival of the whole. In my business, I am very proud of all that is being done by the team here during very difficult times. When they are informed that we need to cut this, control that, they all come together and say “OK, we get it” because they want to protect the whole, not an individual piece.

2 April 2009 at 1:28 p.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Huh? The benjamins thingy went right over my head.
Mike, yes, it sounds like a brush off.
John Naughton, speaking for myself, I've seen newcomers in a bad light quiet often. It happened in Christopher Creek too, new people moved in and decided we were doing things all wrong, went about changing all of the holiday traditions and celebrations to their way, and to hell with the people that had been doing things for the community for so long.
I know there are “old timers” in the alliance, Jackman being one of them, who just happened to be bitter about the Pro Rodeo Committee and left. I know quite a few of them and respect most of them. And it's a good thing you have them to do the heavy lifting. But very sorry to see them get in an alliance against the Pro Rodeo Committee. And I'm not the only one that thinks this is all about politics.

I disagree with you about Evans giving money to whoever he wants to, but then, I disagree with you about Evans on every point. :)

2 April 2009 at 1:54 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Shovelhead,
The NRA in this case in National Rodeo Assc. (Not national Rifle Assc) and has nothing to do with keeping the name. 'Annual worlds oldest continous rodeo. That is a trademark registered with the Az. Sec. of State.
Seems the newcomers don't even know how or where to register a trademark.

2 April 2009 at 2:06 p.m.

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PatJohnson (Pat Johnson) says…

There is no National Rodeo Association, as reported by another paper. The Annual World's Oldest Continuous Rodeo is sanctioned by the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association, also known as the PRCA. Cowboy contestants who aspire to the NFR (National Finals Rodeo) in Las Vegas will mostly enter rodeos sanctioned by the PRCA because that's where the big money is. And speaking of money, 4 years ago when I worked at the Chamber and my job was to coordinate the August Rodeo, it cost $125,000 to produce it. My best guess is that it's probably a lot more now. I sure wouldn't want to try to raise that kind of money in this economy!

2 April 2009 at 3:13 p.m.

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JohnNaughton (John Naughton) says…

Dean,
A Benjamin Slang for money. Benjamin Franklin is on the $100 bill. When Marines talk to each other most things only make sense to us.
I know, everything is about politics. I don't know who convinced you to feel that way, but you're wrong about this one. I know I won't be able to convince you otherwise and for that I'm sorry. The Payson Rodeo Preservation Alliance is not against the Pro Rodeo Committee. If the Chamber was running this year's rodeo we would have had exactly the same conversation with the PRC about lowering fees for this year. The rodeo can't continue to lose money and survive, it's that simple.
You left out a very important word about Evans giving money…”his”…

Mrs. Randall, what the heck are you talking about? The trademark is already registered and owned by the chamber. Never did anyone try to re-register that trademark. NRA? You gotta stop making this stuff up.

2 April 2009 at 3:36 p.m.

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Charlene (Charlene Hunt) says…

Okay, this has turned into nothing but a PPM (Payson Pissin Match). I am so sick of everyone being so negative when you don't know the facts and don't take the time to find them out. However, get on this blog and berate people. Things change, events evolve, events succeed, events fail…………it happens. The best thing we can all do is wish the Payson Pro Rodeo Committee good luck with the Gary Hard Memorial Rodeo in May and the rodeo alliance group good luck with the August rodeo. Try being productive and volunteer to help!!!! with both committees. They are each comprised of well-meaning and community service oriented people. The Chamber of Commerce still owns the rodeo. Like a business they can choose to do what they want with it.
The Town of Payson has NEVER owned the rodeo, I have managed the event center for seven years now. We (Town) do whatever we can to HELP make the event a success at our facility, just like we do for anyone else that has an event there.
Small rodeos are “going under” all over the United States due to the economy and high price of producing a rodeo. This has been rampant for more than 10 years.
Now… I just broke my oath to myself to stay out of the middle of this. However, I have one last thing to say. Kenny Evans is a good, sincere, generous and honorable man like few I have ever met. I don't know if he donated money to the preservation group or not. It would not surprise me if he did. He and his wife give generously of their money to many worthy causes and they have a love for the Rim Country that far outweighs many old timers!

2 April 2009 at 3:48 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Mr. Naughtonm
Another misquote from Evans. NRA

“I wrote the check so they could pay the NRA to make sure we didn't lose the name,” Evans said. “There was a deadline for the first week in December and I was going to be gone three weeks. When I got back, the first thing I did was go out and talk to Bill Armstrong.”

Pat Johnson
Try looking on Google for National Rodeo Assc.
A bit of information PRCA started out as the Cowboys Turtle Assoc.

2 April 2009 at 3:56 p.m.

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Charlene (Charlene Hunt) says…

Oh My Gosh!! Get a rope. Evans misquoted….or was it he was quoted wrong? Who knows, who cares!!!! And since I allowed myself to get sucked into this. Pat Johnson…. thank you for all the years you dedicated to making the Worlds Oldest Continuous rodeo a success. You were the backbone. Just as I have a passion for the youth and adult equestrian programs you had a passion for making the August rodeo a success. It was a great loss when you were cut loose. I don't think we would be in the middle of this PPM if you were still there!

2 April 2009 at 4:40 p.m.

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DonEvans (don evans) says…

From an outsiders perspective: I have lived here almost 16 years, guess that makes me a newbie to some of you. I have been to our Rodeo exactly ONE time, when it was at the old Rumsey Park location. I even volunteered to check id's at the beer booth after being asked if I would. I don't do Rodeo, I'm just not interested in it, nothing against it. But, many people are. And I know if it can be done right and maybe even expanded (the big August one) it can be an economic plus for our town and surrounding communities. And that is sorely needed in this economy. Fresh blood and ideas can't hurt in it's design and operations. Everyone and everything has it's time to pass the torch. This doesn't take anything away from those who have deligently put on the event over the years. I just hope that individual egos are not the monkey wrench that will make it not happen. Let's git er done, make it great, and reap in the benjamins for our community.

2 April 2009 at 5:08 p.m.

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JohnNaughton (John Naughton) says…

Well said Mr. Evans.
Here's the Payson Rodeo Preservation Alliance board and committee chairs.
Director:
Chuck Jackman
Executive Board:
Meg Turlukis, Donna Kline, Dan Haapala, Farrell Hoosava, Cameron Davis
Committee Chairs:
Ronnie McDaniel, Janie Peace-Pyle, Tommy Martin, Judy Baker, Su Connell, Casey O'Brien, Steve Drury, John Naughton, Russ Russell, Hallie Jackman
Other Committee Members:
Rich Stockwell, Drew Justice

2 April 2009 at 5:32 p.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Charlene, sometimes the only way we can get answers is to get on this blog. I'm glad Tom Garret started the thread, a lot of questions were answered, a lot of issues got aired. We have every right to ask questions.
You have your opinion of Evans, I have mine, so don't try to tell me your opinion is the only valid one. He's opened his mouth a few too many times and stuck his foot in it. Propane bills, senior health care, more Indian, less cowboy, public input will be minimal, on and on. Yeah, he's made a few unfortunate remarks. And a few of his supporters have revealed things to me that have convinced me I don't want to join his supporters. But you go right ahead, after all, it's in your best interest to not criticize the mayor.
The way I see this rodeo thing? The split will do it more harm than good. We'll just have to wait and see. And as far as the rodeo losing money the last few years, what business hasn't? It's a horrible tough time, and working together rather than doing what they are doing would be so much better.
You know this town as well as I do, politics is involved, like it or not.

2 April 2009 at 5:34 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

When is the flea market?

2 April 2009 at 5:57 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

If the rodeo loses so much money, and costs so much to put it on, where is the new group getting the money to do it this year? Why would they even want to?

2 April 2009 at 8:13 p.m.

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Charlene (Charlene Hunt) says…

Mike,
I am sorry to report…. are you sitting down? We are canceling the flea market. Chuck Jackman (August Rodeo Director) found a local paint store and a painting contractor to donate the paint and expert painters to paint all the panels and ticket booths at the event center. Our only window of opportunity to get the job done is the first week of May. I am also canceling the other events that week. The facility will be shut down between May 4 and May 11. However, on Monday, May 4 starting at 4 p.m. I am recruiting as many volunteers as I can get to clean corrals, sand panels and do whatever it takes to get the facility ready for the painters the following morning. It will take several hours to complete. Harley riders are welcome! I am providing the hot dogs. Bring your shovel, gloves, steel brush and friends.
P.S. I did not include the name of the paint store and contractor as I feel that is up to Chuck or them to release the information. I am just very excited after all these years to get the “rusty” bucket painted.

2 April 2009 at 8:25 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Charlene,
What? No bar-be-que. (:

I am not trying to butt in but as a suggestion please have some security after the painting.
You would not believe how many people, I won't say teenagers go out there and spin around in the dirt. Cars, ATV's and motor bikes, Not Harleys !
It would be a shame to mess up all the work with dirt and dust.

2 April 2009 at 9:13 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

No Flea market!
I'm truly disappointed :(

3 April 2009 at 4:53 a.m.

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Charlene (Charlene Hunt) says…

Pat,
Sorry we are now on a hot dog budget. The facility will be locked down on the inside, I can't control the parking lot. I have caught a few and called the police. There have been grown adults go out there and tear it up in vehicles and ATV's as well as the teenagers.
Dean,
I am not even going to respond to your remarks and insinuations.

3 April 2009 at 7:41 a.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Charlene, that's good, thank you. Because when you respond then I respond and it just goes on and on. But for the others that read this blog I will say this, some people have been hurt and I only wish things could be done with a little more compassion and a lot less ego.

3 April 2009 at 8:07 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Charlene,
I was kidding about the food. It just seems where ever you and Albert are there is that wonderful Barbeque and beans.

I didn't say it was teenagers. Go back and read the post. There are many stupid adults live here with us.
Maybe a couple of volunteer police could park out there until the paint dries.

3 April 2009 at 10:46 a.m.

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PatJohnson (Pat Johnson) says…

Charlene,
First of all, thanks for the kind remarks! I loved working with you on the August Rodeo and miss it terribly. It was one job that I loved and I was sorry to leave.
Second, let me know what you need for your PPM (Payson Painting Marathon). I'll be happy to pitch in for the hot dogs, buns, chips, etc.
And last, for those of you interested in flea markets/swap meets, The Rye Classic Motorcycle and Auto Parts swap meet will start on April 10th. They are looking for vendors and I don't think the swap meet will be restricted to car and motorcycle parts. The swap meet will be located next to the Rye Bar and will be every Friday, Saturday and Sunday, starting at 6AM. If you want to know more, call 480-273-4408.

3 April 2009 at 12:24 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Mike,

“Pat, what has the NRA got to do with the Payson rodeo?”

New event. Rootin Tootin Cowboy Shootin. You get all the particpants riding around in a circle, you give a three year old a rifle, and….

:-)

Charlene,

“Oh My Gosh!! Get a rope.”

Now there's a way to make the rodeo pay for itself. Politician roping.

Put that with Mike's new event and we'd have to bulldoze a new parking lot half the size of Payson.

“There have been grown adults go out there and tear it up in vehicles and ATV's as well as the teenagers.”

It's too bad that some people do things like that. It isn't anything new. All the way back in 1952, when I was assigned duty to guard a warehouse way out in the boonies in Iceland, one of the other guards grabbed a small forklift, rode it around in circles inside the warehouse, and broke the fuel line leading to the heating system. Then—of course—he begged the rest of us (three other guards who were outside when he did it) to cover up for him. We turned him in.

As I said, it's too bad that some people do things like that. It's childish—not having fun, but doing it in a way that destroys something someone else worked on so hard.

Pat J,

Some people destroy things. Others—like you—are the other side of the coin.

3 April 2009 at 2:17 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I haven't been on a horse since we sold our ranch in 1977 but would sign up for the Politician roping. (:
If you can't rope 'em run over 'em. (: Joke

3 April 2009 at 5:03 p.m.

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DonEvans (don evans) says…

Just an idea for something to add to the Rodeo. I don't know if it's feasible or desired. How about a simulated cowboy/cowgirl shootin shootout (using blanks of course) or Western dress up competition open to the public? Wagon hay rides for the kids outside the arena? Maybe get some group to bring up a stagecoach,(Wells Fargo Bank) or horse buggy's. Payson old car club or Rim country 4-Wheelers club display. I think the Tonto Rim Sports Club has a good number of Western dress cowboy/girl action shooters. Even if they just walk around in their regalia? Just a thought.

3 April 2009 at 6:54 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Did the article in tonights paper clear up everything about the rodeo for you ? (: (:

3 April 2009 at 8:49 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Don,
I know you don't like rodeos so will try to explain about real rodeo fans. They go to see the riding of broncs, bulls, and see the roping and steer wrestling. My opinion.
I have been going to rodeos since I was about 5 yrs old. Payson, Prescott, Flagstaff, Gilbert, Phoenix and Tucson.
There was so much extra stuff 2 yrs ago that had nothing to do with any of that I will probably never go to another one if it doesn't change back to what a rodeo used to be.

It is unfair to the contestants to not be able to participate in front of the fans and if there were not so much money spent on the “extras” there would be more money paid to the contestants.
The bull fighting clowns are an important part as they protect the bull riders when they are thrown off. That expense is fine.

More contestants, more fans more money made.

Charlene, do you agree with any of this? I am not being sarcastic, want an honest answer.

4 April 2009 at 12:38 p.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

It cleared something up for me Pat. It sounds like Bill Armstrong is willing to help them in any way he can.

4 April 2009 at 1:06 p.m.

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Charlene (Charlene Hunt) says…

Pat,
I am going to defer your question regarding “extras” to Pat Johnson. She knows exactly what it costs to produce a rodeo and where the money goes. I know it is very expensive, even if you cut out the specialty act, which I believe is just a small part of the overall expense. Like I said on here before, the contestants are no longer ranch cowboys, they are professional athletes. A good rope horse, barrel horse can cost a competitor anywhere from 20-40 thousand dollars and more. When they are not roping at a PRCA rodeo, they are on the road hitting USTRC ropings, etc. to make a living. I personally don't mind the extra acts. I think the rodeos need to go back to allowing the local cowboys and cowgirls compete. That would bring back a lot of the crowd.
Pat Johnson….. can you take it from here and maybe outline the expenses?

4 April 2009 at 1:58 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

I don't think the Payson Rodeo will ever turn a profit mainly because, as you stated, professional athletes are too greedy and will require too much prize money. If we downsize it to allow a lot of local talent the tourists will not pay the high ticket price.

What to do, what to do.

Now that is only an opinion from an outsider as I have never ever been to a rodeo, in person or on television!

4 April 2009 at 4:14 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Shovelhead,

I did not say the cowboys were greedy. You are twisting my words.
Yes, they are professional athletes, that pay all their own expenses and don't make anything if they are not in the top group.

Most people have no clue how much money is invested in horses, tack, trailers, tow vehicles, feed, and traveling expenses.
Bronc and bull riders do not spend as much as they don't need a horse unless they participate in some other event.
When not at a rodeo or traveling they are practicing every day.

Long ago local cowboys were allowed to participate even if they were not a member of PRCA. There has been a pro rodeo assc ever since 1936 when the cowboys started the Cowboys Turtle Assc. which later turned into the PRCA.

Little more history. George Cline the grandfather of Steve Cline who is recovering from burns when his house burned a few weeks ago in Tonto Basin was the first person to rope a calf in Madison Square Gardens in New York.
Eddie Conway also from Tonto Basin was in the top ten bull riders, when he quit and came home to help his dad many years ago to run their ranch at Greenback.

4 April 2009 at 5:46 p.m.

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Charlene (Charlene Hunt) says…

Mike,
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the locals participating. They would participate in addition to the pros. For years rodeos allowed the “hometown” cowboys and cowgirls who were not PRCA sanctioned to participate right along with the pros. It gave it some local flavor and the crowd somebody to REALLY cheer for as they were usually the underdogs. I don't remember why that option was taken away. Three years ago the Chamber failed to register the rodeo with the WPRA who sanctions the women's barrel race. When they realized the error, it was to late to get the pros…. so they opted to have the entire barrel racing event feature all the local girls (ages 10 - 50+) it was a huge crowd pleaser and lots of locals came to watch as a result. Now, you couldn't do that with bull riders as there is not an abundance of them locally like there are barrel racers…. but a scattering of them throughout the performance would be a real crowd pleaser.

4 April 2009 at 5:51 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

That and a buck 25 will get you a cup of coffee but it will not make the Payson Rodeo a profit!
And Pat, you didn't say the cowboys were pro athletes so I wasn't twisting your words!
I wasn't twisting anyones words they were mine and I want credit for saying it!
Don't pro cowboys have sponsors that help with the costs like drag racers and NASCAR drivers? If so, don't keep yelling about how they pay “all their own expenses”.

“Most people have no clue how much money is invested in horses, tack, trailers, tow vehicles, feed, and traveling expenses.” Again, cost of doing business is not one of my concerns whether it be rodeo, drag racing, nascar, or bass fishing!

In all fairness the cowboys are not any worse, in my opinion, than any of the other pro athletes. For the most part they are in it for the money. It's a business to them as it is with the chamber and the group that puts it on regardless of which group is putting it together.
Remember, it's all about the benjamins!

4 April 2009 at 8:04 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Pat,

Been a little busy. Couldn't get back to you earlier.

In answer to your question, I was already satisfied with the answers we had before the article came out. On the other hand, it did clear up a couple of minor points, and that's good.

As far as I'm concerned the entire matter is now a non-issue. In fact it always was. We just didn't know it.

Truth is, this whole affair simply proves something that 18th century scientists were very fond of saying: “Nature abhors a vacuum.”

Things happened. Those who were involved in them knew what had happened—and why—but that knowledge didn't filter down to the general public. Since people didn't know what was going on, they began to speculate, filling the void with conjecture. As often seems to happen up here in the Rim Country when conjecture gets involved, the “issue” began to take on political overtones.

Actually, there was no “issue.” The entire thing was a perfectly natural effort to reduce a large annual loss of money. Obviously, it was something which had to be done, especially in these days of economic downturn. Now that we all know what's “really going on,” the “issue” has simply faded away.

One good thing that came out of the latest article, I might add, is the fact that everyone seems to believe that all involved were dealt with fairly and honestly. No hidden agendas. No secret conspiracy. No nothing.

Although there is always a certain sadness involved in change, especially when some folks who have done a fine job for a number of years may not be as actively involved as they were in the past, it looks like we are back on track with the rodeo again, and can begin working together in support of a long standing Payson tradition.

I see that the people posting are now worrying about how to make the rodeo a paying concern. That beats the stuff we were talking about when this string started up.

I'd chime in, but if you had everything I know about rodeos in your right eye it wouldn't even make you blink.

Anyway, something good has come out of this string.

Rumor and innuendo have been replaced by fact, and we're now talking about something important. And working together toward a common goal.

I wish we could achieve that every time we start a string.

4 April 2009 at 8:08 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Shovelhed,
So sorry, I thought you were saying I said cowboys were greedy.

Charlene,
You take the one about sponsors. I know cowboys are given shirts, Champion saddles and things like that, but it don't pay the rent.

Jake Randall probably had 10 or more saddles he won in local ropings but what can you do with them except put them on display or give them away?

4 April 2009 at 8:15 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I would like to know who was losing all the money?

Pat J.
Please do tell us how much the specialty acts cost.

4 April 2009 at 8:57 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I would like to know who was losing all the money?
According to Corp. Commission records on the 2008 financial disclosure the C of C had
$91,167.37 in assets.

$45,760.98 in cash
$5,063.30 accounts receivable
$2,374.36 inventories
$2,220.78 other prepaid expenses
$36,658.62 investments

Total assests $92,078.04

Liabilities:
$861.02 accounts payable
$44.00 loans
$5.65 other sales tax liability
$910.67 accounts payable

$91,167.37 grand total

This is all a matter of Public Record !

As a non profit they are supposed to report where the money came from and where any was spent.

Not a very complete financial statement.. My opinion

Pat J.
Please do tell us how much the specialty acts cost.

4 April 2009 at 11 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

How much would the flea market bring in?
We will never have a quasicentennial(sp) flea market if we never have the first one! :)

5 April 2009 at 8:10 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Shovelhead,
I know the question isn't for me, but it depends on how much is charged for a vendors space, how they charge for customer vehicle parking and who does the concessions.

Security, J-Johns and cleanup is a cost to the parks dept. which has to be paid for.
Maybe charge a cleanup deposit to the vendors and if they leave it clean, give it back and everyone wins.

If the first one isn't done right people won't go back for the next one.

My belief has always been, get 50 buyer's cars in there at $1.00 instead of 10 cars at $5.00.
Keep the vendors spaces cheap enough for them to make a little money. It takes a lot of time and effort to load up things haul them out there and repack what isn't sold.

Don't be like the rodeo. $5.00 to park $14 or $15 to get into the rodeo and then $2.00 for a bottle of water, for less than 2 hours of real rodeo.

5 April 2009 at 8:59 a.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Tom, from what I had been hearing from quite a few people, there was a suspicion about the money Evans gave to Jackman. Hallie Overman Jackman had given a fund raiser for Evans during his campaign, so when Evans gave Jackman money it caused a lot of raised eyebrows. You know how small towns are, big towns as far as that goes. In my opinion, if the shoe had been on another foot, if it had been Bob Edwards in this very same position, Sheriff Joe and the attorney general would have been called in:)
Hopefully the two groups can work together and hopefully the rodeo will be a success, but at this point I just can't get that enthused after all that's gone on.

5 April 2009 at 9:10 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Dean,
You left out the FBI. (:

I wonder where the new group is getting all the money that is needed to put on the rodeo along with all the other things they have planned for the whole week.
Payson Regional Ec. Dev. which is funded by the town maybe?

5 April 2009 at 10:32 a.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Pat, maybe I better quit while I'm ahead :)

5 April 2009 at 10:33 a.m.

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Pat (Pat Johnson) says…

Pat R.:
The last rodeo I was involved with was in 2005, and my memory for specifics isn't as good as it should be. But a specialty act normally costs around $5,000. Other expenses to produce the rodeo include the stock contractor (about $23,000), feed for the livestock, printing of tickets, badges and posters, advertising, insurance, the rodeo announcer and flag carriers and their hotel rooms, the Payson Pro Rodeo Committee, Sheriff's Possee, beer and other alcohol that will be sold, the VIP tent food expenses (you have to feed the volunteers and contestants), tent rental expenses, sheep rental and feed (for Mutton Bustin'). Then there's the prize money for the contestants that is increased every year and buckles for the winners of each event. And that's just what I remember off the top of my head!
The new group (the Alliance) will have to offset these costs by selling sponsorships locally and out of town. A banner in the arena costs the sponsor around $225 and to sponsor an event like bull riding is around $1,500. National sponsors like Dodge kick in about $2,000. Beer, vendor fees and ticket sales at the gate make up for the rest, and that's the scary part. A couple of inches of rain on Saturday night can just about kill ticket sales for the biggest night of the rodeo. Yes, you can buy rain insurance, but that costs a lot too. And if you buy it, you have to have someone certified by the National Weather Service sitting in the stands with a certified measuring device, just in case. We were lucky to have Anna Mae Deming to do that for many years, but sadly, she's gone and there is no one else in town qualified to do that.
So, as you can see, the Alliance has a lot of hard work cut out for them. I wish them well in this unstable economy and I continue to have faith that the people of Rim Country value our history and heritage and will continue to support the rodeo as they always have.
Charlene: Want to enter the Senior Women's Bull Riding with me?

5 April 2009 at 11:36 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Dean,

“Pat, maybe I better quit while I'm ahead :)”

Thanks. You just reminded me of something for next week's SatEvePost.

Everybody,

Reading what Pat Johnson said also reminded me of something. Something I know you don't want to hear, but in all honesty I have to mention it.

Before I moved up here I used to come up as often as possible—to an A-frame cabin out in the area beyond Houston Mesa—way out. Wasn't my cabin. I couldn't afford one. Belonged to my brother in law.

I knew a lot of people down in the valley that used to come here, folks that had weekend cabins. I met most of them up here.

Here's the low blow: One day I was planning a weekend up here and I ran into someone that had a place up in Strawberry. Told him I was planning a great weekend.

What he said to me is something you folks need to hear, as unpleasant as it may be. Here it is, verbatim.

“Don't go.”

“Huh? Why not?”

“Rodeo weekend. Payson is a mess. Nobody goes up there on the rodeo weekend.”

I went anyway.

Do me a favor will you? Don't shoot me for quoting what somebody else said. I repeat it for the obvious reason. It may explain why attendance at the rodeo isn't all it should be. Some non-western-loving folks stay away that weekend.

Or maybe that's good thing. Beats me. I just thought you folks ought to hear the comment.

5 April 2009 at 12:03 p.m.

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Pat (Pat Johnson) says…

Tom,
Rodeo isn't for everyone, just like professional football, basketball, wrestling or any other sport. I for one, wouldn't pay a nickel to watch a NASCAR race, but that's just me.
But people from all over the world love rodeo, Eurpoeans, especially. When I worked at the Chamber there were calls every day of the year from people wanting to come to the August Rodeo, planning their itinerary around it. Many locals don't attend the rodeo because of the traffic and crowds and I understand that. But that third weekend in August may very well be the weekend that supports many local businesses through the winter months.
And for the locals that say they care nothing about the August Doin's, want to know how many requests there are for “Comp” tickets from locals? It's well into the hundreds! They seem to come out of the woodwork that last week before the rodeo, and each and every one of them feel they deserve to get in for free, regardless of how much or how little they did to contribute to the event. The Chamber has tried over the years to find a way to make the rodeo affordable for locals, too. Half price tickets on Friday night, free admission for kids on Sunday, group rates for residents of gated communities, etc. I don't know what the answer is in regards to increasing community involvement but I hope the new Alliance does.
Tom, your mention of that cabin way out on the East Verde reminded me of something. I live on the land that was formerly the Meadows Ranch, now known as Whispering Pines. In 1884, Charlie Meadows started the August Doin's Rodeo and his history continues to this day. Let's try to preserve that history and celebrate it every third weekend in August.

5 April 2009 at 2:04 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Pat J.
Thank you for answering some of our questions.

You really pushed my buttons on somethings in your post. Nothing against you personally.

I had to go back and read three times about the group rates for residents of gated communities.
I thought I had read it wrong. Were you serious?
The ones living in the gated communities should be able to afford to pay their own way full price !

My definition of volunteer is you do something for nothing except the good feeling only you know about, not how much you will get in return.

They have to eat where ever they are. Why do you feel the need to feed them or the contestants?
The rodeo was held for many years without a VIP tent. The only people that didn't pay to get in were the people working on the days of the rodeo.

Why is the sheriffs posse paid?
What kind of badges?
Why are hotel rooms paid for by the rodeo?
Aren't most of the buckles donated?

I know, answer one question and it brings up a dozen more. (:

Tom,
Your remark about people not coming up from the valley on rodeo weekend is true and I understand it. If they aren't coming for the rodeo they don't want to mess with all the traffic. Of course in this day and age the traffic is bad on any day you travel the Beeline.
As for locals not going to the rodeo because of traffic and to many people I don't think that is true. If they wanted to see a rodeo they would go.
I remember when the crowds at the rodeos were much larger and rowdier. It was a party from Thursday night until Monday morning. There were dances all four nights.

My last remark and I can back it up. This is not the 125th rodeo.

Thanks again to Pat J. for taking the time to answer the questions.

5 April 2009 at 2:47 p.m.

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Pat (Pat Johnson) says…

Pat R.,
OK, lets see if I can explain some of these things to you. First of all, what you read was correct. Yes, special group rates for residents of a gated community.
Now to your other questions:
What kind of badges? Well, you need to identify your volunteers, so that they can enter the arena without buying a ticket. Same goes for vendors. Some of them employ several people and they need badges to get in the arena for the same reason. Other badges are for Media, Security, Judges, etc.
Why pay for hotel rooms? A group known as the Calendar Cowgirls would come to Payson for Rodeo weekend. The would appear at every performance carrying sponsor flags in the arena before each event. They also are in the parade. They did not charge a talent fee, mileage to and from Payson or meals. All they asked for was 2 hotel rooms for 2 nights. They would sleep 4-5 girls per room. Pretty cheap price to pay for good talent and good workers.
Buckles are not donated. The cost of championship buckles might be defrayed some by sponsorships.
You feed volunteers because you want them to know you appreciate their hard work. And they get hungry after working a 4-6 hour shift.
You feed contestants because you want them to feel welcome to your arena and it's also a rodeo tradition.
I'm sure I left something out, but I hope this helps a little, Pat

5 April 2009 at 3:12 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Pat J.
When and who started feeding the volunteers and contestants? I have never seen it done anywhere else.
As I said before volunteering is having a good feeling not what you think you will get in return except that good feeling inside that no ones elses can feel or see.

5 April 2009 at 3:28 p.m.

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Pat (Pat Johnson) says…

Pat,
I don't know the when and who of feeding volunteers and contestants started, but I think it's a good idea to show thanks to volunteers and to show hospitality to our visiting contestants. They aren't dining on gourmet cuisine. The usual “meal” consists of a hot dog or hamburger, chips and a soda.
Oh, and one more thing. The Possee was paid for overnight security at the arena so that vendors felt safe leaving their booths. The Payson Police Dept. has a few other things going on during rodeo weekend and it would be unreasonable to ask them to station an officer there overnight. This was before the P.D. had their volunteer program in place.

5 April 2009 at 3:56 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Pat J.
One more question and then I might shut up. (:

Is the sheriff's posse deputized and do they have any authority to arrest anyone or are they like the PD volunteers or bar bouncers? All they can do is call for help?

5 April 2009 at 4:33 p.m.

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Pat (Pat Johnson) says…

Pat R.,
I believe the posse is just like the volunteer police. I don't know about bar bouncers because I don't hang out in bars. All the posse can do is call for back-up or help, but I believe that their presence there is a deterrant to crime.

5 April 2009 at 4:58 p.m.

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DonEvans (don evans) says…

For those interested in the local Rodeo being successful, drawing a larger base of a “paying” attendence would seem important. That's why my suggestions from above ^. Those types of things shouldn't COST the Rodeo anything. i.e. Display of old car club,RC4W, people walking around in western regalia, let kids feed small animals, goats chickens, lambs etc. I think to make this Rodeo succeed, you need to diversify it a little bit. To attract people to come who might not otherwise want to go just to see Rodeo competition events. I like shovelheads and Pat's cheap flea market idea also. Maybe try the first one with no fees. First come to sign up gets a spot. Once there filled up, adios muchacho. You snooze, you lose. Advertise well ahead of time. Do it and they will come! With something else as an attraction going on at the Rodeo area, I think a lot of people might get caught up in the Rodeo hoopla and pay to come in and watch for awhile. Now you got benjamins from non Rodeo ethusiasts circulating in and the word spreads for next year.

6 April 2009 at 11:41 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Don,

In truth, I think people make too much of the need to clean up after something like a flea market. In fact people make too much of everything these days. A few years back it would be one volunteer with a broom and a trash can.

I keep thinking about how much the school said it was going to cost to get rid of the paint or something some kids sprayed on the track. Something like $20,000. And the cost of airing up the tires on the buses again after they were let down.

We approach things in a formal, throw-mone-at it-manner too much these days.

Personally, though I wouldn't get to go to it, I think a flea market is a great thing. And the cheaper the better.

And quit talking about Benjamin, will you? He was the biggest cheapskate in the Thirteen Colonies. They should have put his face on the penny. :-)

6 April 2009 at 1:08 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom.
Where else are the kids going to make about $12.50 an hour picking up pop cans and paper if not at town parks?

If not mistaken, it was not just a matter of putting air in the tires as they had come loose from the rims and weren't some slashed?

I would like for you all to quit talking about the Benjamins. The first post I read I thought you were talking about Mr. and Mrs. Benjamin in Star Valley and couldn't believe what I was reading.
I was slower than usual that day.

6 April 2009 at 2:21 p.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Pat, I thought they were talking about the Star Valley Benjamin's too:)

6 April 2009 at 5:27 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Goldplay.
Glad to see someone was slower than me that day.
Wonder if anyone else will come on and admit they didn't know what benjamins meant.
Can't find the original post now.

7 April 2009 at 12:10 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“One more question and then I might shut up. (:”

I missed that comment in that post. How many beers did you have before you typed it?

“If not mistaken, it was not just a matter of putting air in the tires as they had come loose from the rims and weren't some slashed?”

I didn't read either of those two statements in anything published about the incident, and believe me if those tires had been slashed there would have been far more done to those kids than was done. And quite properly so. That's vandalism. They were just handled as kids who got carried away with senor-itis.

“Wonder if anyone else will come on and admit they didn't know what benjamins meant.”

Me-e-e-e, teacher! My hand is up.

7 April 2009 at 1:56 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I do not drink any kind of alcohol, not that I haven't but don't really like the taste and could always have more fun without it and remember that I had fun.

8 April 2009 at 5:36 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“… and remember that I had fun.”

You said something there.

There was exactly one time in my life when I drank—I mean really drank. Bad moment. Glad it's 50 years behind me.

Odd you should say that.

That's exactly the way I feel about drugs. Never touched one in my life. Never will (too late now anyway). I like being clear headed. If I felt that blah, knocked out feeling that druggies apparently live for, I'd be willing to pay all that money they pay just to get back to normal.

But I still say, of course, that drugs should be legalized. I'm me. I know what I like. I don't want to force others to think like or act like I do—unless they are harming someone else. Drug laws enforce one person's morality on someone else. That's wrong.

8 April 2009 at 8:04 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom.
Aren't there other laws to enforce someone else's morality?
Polygamy, bigamy, prostitution, tobacco and alcohol for minors, pornography.

I refuse to take prescription drugs for pain and depression. Hallucinations etc
.Yes, I am depressed because of pain and other things but a pill ain't gonna help !

Pat J,
I went back to your post of April 5 where you said, “yes, special group rates for residents of gated communitys.” WHY ?

8 April 2009 at 4:44 p.m.

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PatJohnson (Pat Johnson) says…

Pat R.: I guess the simple answer to your question would be that they asked for special group rates and they were given those rates by a member of the Chamber board.

8 April 2009 at 6:21 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Pat J
One member has the power to do that ? No wonder the C of C has no money. (:

9 April 2009 at 5:10 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Pat,

“Aren't there other laws to enforce someone else's morality?
Polygamy, bigamy, prostitution, tobacco and alcohol for minors, pornography.”

Okay, let's take them one at a time.

Polygamy, yes. Enforces a religiously based moral code. Why should we care if people join together in a legal manner? The only caveat is that only one marriage should receive tax and other benefits. That is not a moral decision. It is based on the fact that marriage is one of the bedrock institutions on which civilization rests. It is essential to the healthy growth and proper care of children, and children are always the future. It would be wise for us to pass a constitutional amendment defining marriage as a union between one man and one woman, one of the few places where GW was correct. People should be allowed to come together in a legal status that allows such things as medical information and decisions to be made in behalf of a partner, and so on.

Bigamy, ditto.

Prostitution, while morally repugnant, should be legal. Great care should be taken to ensure that it never takes place under duress, that those in need of economic aid are not forced into it by need, that children are never involved in any way, and that it is not the cause of the spread of disease. An unpleasant reality.

Tobacco for minors is different. Tobacco genuinely does harm. No one debates that. Until children reach an age where they can reasonably be said to be able to make choices based on logic and understanding it is wise to keep them away from it. That age is about 13 or 14. Under no circumstances should laws punish adults for selling tobacco to minors in any way except for a small token fine. There should no felony charges. Any punishment beyond a low level fine merely ties up the legal system and places too much weight on a very minor offense.

Pornography, again morally repugnant, is different. It tends to damage those participate in the making of it, and often leads to the exploitation of children. It therefore is something which must be handled as a felony. Since the government is the owner of the distribution system which supports the internet, distribution of pornographic material on the internet should be a federal offense.

As long as the subject of special rates for gated communities seems to be a matter of continuing discussion, I'll comment on it. No doubt the people in those communities, at least up here, tend to be wealthier than most and probably don't need a break. The question probably ought to be whether or not the practice leads to better attendance and results in a profit rather than a loss.

I don't hate the wealthy. I even occasionally swerve to miss one if it runs out onto the road. And I have always favored using velvet pads on the straps used to hold one down on the board on which they are introduced into the guillotine.
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:-)

9 April 2009 at 8:05 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
What good is attendance if they don't pay full price?
If you just want to count bodies lower the ticket price for everyone.

9 April 2009 at 10:31 a.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

I think there should be discount tickets for anyone with a foodstamp card. Thay need a discount more than the gated community residents. If you drive up in a Hummer you should match the parking fee with a donation to the scholarship fund not get discounted tickets!

9 April 2009 at 1:31 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Shovelhead,
You are so good at times !

9 April 2009 at 4:50 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

I'm good ALL the time!

9 April 2009 at 9:58 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Do you really beleive a 13 or 14 year old uses logic and understands anything unless they are being graded on it?
Think of the drugs, tobacco and alcohol being used by that age group. Don't forget the sex.
Park outside the school and watch the kids in that age group as they leave the school campus.