The Payson Roundup / Reader Comments: A question for the county.

I got a call this afternoon from the office of our County Supervisor telling me that they had received a telephone call saying that I had a question for the County. I was asked if 2:30 tomorrow afternoon would be a convenient time to come in and talk to Tommie Martin to have my question answered.

I told them of course that they were victims of a practical joke, and explained that it was a reference to this string on the blog.

Then I thanked them for their courtesy, explained my situation as a caregiver, and told them I would love nothing better than to be free to take advantage of their offer. I also explained that the present circumstances, which are pretty bad, make it impossible.

So, whoever you are, it looks like your little joke backfired. I know now, and so does everyone reading this string, that our County Supervisor is willing to sit down with an ordinary citizen and do her best to answer a question.

For local government, I'd say that's outstanding, wouldn't you?
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Anyway, it looks like we're not going to get much discussion on this string, so I'll more or less close it out now.

The question I asked about whether the County would return to the present tax rate if the economic slump ended was a rhetorical one. I thought we'd discuss it, that some of us would insist that no tax is ever temporary, and others would say that a return to good times would most likely see a return to present tax rates.

I did not believe we would end up with a consensus. Truth is, I rather suspected that most people would not change their original opinion, but there was a likelihood of an interesting discussion, and of the usual “getting off the subject,” which sometimes turns out more interesting than the central issue. So I posed the question.

If you really want the answer to the question I've got it.

Here it is: It is impossible to predict what will happen because there are too many variables.

We are dependent upon what the state will do, what the federal government will do, and—most of all—not just what the economy will do, but when, how fast, and how well.

And there's a cumulative effect too. If the economy is slow to recover, and the state and county get too far behind, having to shelve projects and delay funding for them, it's very difficult to say when things will return to “normal” up here.

But let's suppose that things do get back to normal in a short period of time, that state moneys return and sales taxes grow to their normal levels, that money starts pouring in, that the economy, and the County with it, begin to thrive again. Will the County reduce the tax rate?

The answer? Simple….

If it can.

2 April 2009 at 7:57 a.m.

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Goldplay (Dean Shields) says…

Tom, I thought your question was valid and very surprised at the comment by Bernice. Bleeding heart? And for someone to go to Tommie Martin and then have that office call you is ridiculous. Makes me wonder why we even throw our opinion out on this blog when there are people like that.
In my opinion, once a tax rate is increased it probably would not be lowered when things got better. But who knows?

2 April 2009 at 9:36 a.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

“Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.”
Dr. Milton Friedman

2 April 2009 at 11:51 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Dean,

I think Bernice might have been reading a little fast that day, and perhaps missed the fact that the first few sentences were there for the purpose of setting up the question.

As for someone calling Tommie Martin, I'm glad they did. It put me in touch with some folks who were extremely polite, efficient, and helpful. The end result was no doubt the exact opposite of what the prankster expected.

Actually, that was not my first contact with that office. Just after I moved here in 1998, before Tommie Martin was elected, I sent a letter inquiring whether or not it would be possible to put culverts across the north end of my street, a dirt road. The reason was that the main road, which is paved, runs downhill, and because the intersection is a t-intersection each hard rain cut into my road, making a deep rut. Got a nice letter back thanking me for pointing out the problem. Two culverts went in, one on my road, and one on the next one down. The County also ditched the side of the road to carry water through the culverts.

I didn't demand that anything be done, just asked if it was possible.

Mike, as always you add a little humor at just the right time.

3 April 2009 at 6:41 a.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

I have to admit that I am extremely biased against Gila County, I thought I would say it in case anyone has missed that in my statements. My bias stems from my belief that Gila County is dedicated to growth and approves growth without accepting the responsibility to make sure that infrastructure and natural resources will support that growth.

I further believe that Gila County would never lower property taxes. Once a certain level is reached they would just continue at that rate and if you want to say that is bias talking, by all means do. We have already mentioned that in this real estate downturn, other counties have lowered property values while Gila County has chosen to raise limited property value. The limited property value is what your taxes are based on. Therefore, even if Gila County taxes at the same rate as they did last year, we will all have a property tax increase because of the limited value increase.

P.S. I was not the person who called Gila County. And, please remember that Martin is a politician (bias speaking again). :-)

3 April 2009 at 7:58 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Bernice,
I was told at the assessors office that the state does the formula for the limited property value not the counties. Maybe Shovelhead would do some research on that.
I am not defending Gila county. The reason I was at the assessors was because of the tax value notices I had received. One of the reasons we have high taxes is there is so little privately owned land in Gila County.

If all the mines were opened again in Gila County, cattle allowed and lumber cut it would help our taxes.

Who are the environmentalists saving the earth for? Are they from outer space?
They don't want water dammed up for agriculture and drinking. No trees cut for anything. Don't eat the wild animals, deer, elk, etc.
No cattle on forest land. No mining.
I am getting to the point I think. (:
No jobs, no money, no food, no people. Only taxes !

Now the call to Tommie's office.
I would bet someone in a county office was reading the blog. I have talked to people that work in town, and county offices and someone in every office read some blogs instead of doing their work. I think some kind of block should be put on computers in all work places. More productive work and less gossip.
I walked into an office here in Payson, not a town office, and the receptionist was watching male strippers.

Tom,
Guess I got off the subject again. HUH?
My mind wanders.

3 April 2009 at 8:06 a.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

Yes, I know because of the convaluated way in which limited property value is determined, Gila County “had to” raise this value. However, as discussed previously, other counties have lowered full cash value on properties. According to local realtors, when property does sell, it is not selling at the price it did a few years back. Perhaps, Gila County, too, should have lowered full cash value.

I used to just about croak (perhaps some wish I had) when a former Gila County supervisor used to brag that Gila County hadn't raised its tax rate in years implying that there has been no tax increase. Didn't this person realize that people were intelligent enough to realize that Gila County didn't have to raise its tax rate because the county continually raised property values. Come on we look at our tax bills and saw that the county was getting a bigger bite year after year.

3 April 2009 at 8:52 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Bernice.
Payson has made the same statements about not raising our property tax.
Once most people are elected to office thier brains turn to mush and they think ours have.
An observation and personal opinion.
To all the elected people out there don't be offended if the shoe doesn't fit.

3 April 2009 at 1:16 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Pat,

“If all the mines were opened again in Gila County, cattle allowed and lumber cut it would help our taxes.”

If all the mines were opened again, cattle allowed, and timber cut, we would have nice low property taxes again.

In answer to your question, what the environmentalists want is that the forests be closed except for the animals. They don't want us in there at all. I know that sounds crazy, but if you go online and read their literature, that's their bottom line. Go back to a “state of nature,” which means no hummin beans.

They don't see to realize that we're a part of nature too.

Bernice,

I know you are going to think I'm coming to the defense of the County, but I'm not. I don't defend anyone who does anything I think is “wrong,” and in this case that statement you quoted does not reflect wrong thinking.

But I'm afraid you missed the logic of it.

“I used to just about croak (perhaps some wish I had) when a former Gila County supervisor used to brag that Gila County hadn't raised its tax rate in years…”

As a person who has lived in places where property values went up AND the tax rate went up too, I can tell you that we are genuinely lucky. What really hurts is when the percentage of property value that gets taken in taxes begins to rise. For one thing, it drives elderly people on fixed incomes out of their own homes. And I have seen that with my own two eyes back in Connecticut.

When property values go up, it reflects a general increase in everything—including what the city, state, and county have to pay for everything too. Therefore, it makes sense that taxes have to go up. But as long as they stay within the increase in the cost of living, that's fair enough, isn't it?

As much as we may dislike paying taxes, we have to keep a level-headed view of what goes on.

Think about it for a minute and you'll see the logic of what I am saying.

3 April 2009 at 1:29 p.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

I see the logic, however, as far as Gila County is concerned – like I said I am completely biased or is it prejudiced. I think if you owned property in more than one county at the same time so that you can do a year to year comparison, you might begin to understand why I get hot under the collar where Gila is concerned.

Have property taxes in Gila County really only increased as much as the cost of living? I admit I have not compared the yearly increases in property taxes to the increase in the cost of living.

4 April 2009 at 1:09 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Bernice,

“Have property taxes in Gila County really only increased as much as the cost of living?”

After reading your question I did a rough run on the numbers. As far as I can see Gila County is actually behind the cost of living curve. My guess is that many counties are, and—again just a guess— that the abrupt rise in the cost of fuel hasn't affected them as much as it affected most of us.

I can't be sure, of course, but I feel fairly confident that the percentage we spend on fuel (both for transportation and for heating) is in excess of the percentage that the counties spend.

And there also the fact that the rise in gas prices caused an incredibly high jump in food costs. For just one example, not two years ago a half gallon of the brand of lactose free milk that Lolly and I use was hovering around $2.89. It's now close to $4.00.

And the price of other staples, like bread for example, has jumped like that too. And if you check can sizes, some of them are beginning to look like thimbles, and box sizes have gone the same route. Food is way the heck ahead of the cost of living curve, which makes no sense, but there you are.

“P.S. I was not the person who called Gila County. And, please remember that Martin is a politician (bias speaking again). :-)”

Forgot to mention this in my last two posts. I never for one minute thought it was you that did that. Sorry that I forgot to say it, but there are times around the house when I'd forget my backside if it wasn't stitched to my hips.

By the way, I don't doubt for a minute that Gila County has to raise property taxes more than other counties. The almost-all-federal-land thing makes it inevitable, I suppose.

Do you think it would be better if the county raised sales tax instead? We get a lot of people that just drive through. They actually do wear out the roads while not paying much for them. And their passing through increases other county costs too, such as—oh—law enforcement and whatnot. I'd be willing to bet that our county budget for road maintenance is sky high compared to what we take in.

4 April 2009 at 4:21 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Have you noticed that some bacon is packaged in 12 oz. instead of a lb? Check the fine print. (:

4 April 2009 at 5:59 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Ice cream is no longer a full half gallon either! :(

4 April 2009 at 7:56 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
We went 14 post before we got off track. Aren't you proud of us?

Shovelhead,
Quarts of alcohol are now sold in liters to bars. Screws up your pricing of shots.
Don't ask me to explain, just take my word for this one. PLEASE (:

4 April 2009 at 8:17 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

What do you think, folks? Would we be better off if we raised sales taxes instead of property taxes?

Pat,

“Quarts of alcohol are now sold in litters to bars.”

Why would they bring in alcohol on a litter? I don't get it. I've seen that done somewhere—some movie or news report or something—but I forget where. I wondered at the time what the heck was going on.

By the way, I know this is off the track, but your comment on litters got me thinking.

Have you ever considered what it was like to be carried on one of those outside-the-helicopter litters during the Korean War? You know? Strapped to the landing gear?

I wonder how many poor GI's died of heart failure riding out there?

And what if they flew through a flock of birds? Or even a cloud of airborne bugs?

And I'll tell you another thing. That would be one lousy place to be if the enemy opened up with ack-ack. Talk about cuttin washers!

4 April 2009 at 9:28 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Put your glasses on. It was liters not litters.
Would it have been better if I spelled it litre?
Or are you pulling my leg ? (:

As for riding on a litter strapped to a helicopter I can not even imagine what it was like.
I don't think anyone who hasn't done it can either.

5 April 2009 at 11:20 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Pat,

“It was liters not litters.”

But I copied and pasted. How could it be wrong?

Are you sure your glasses aren't on inside out? That happens you know. You can't tell it unless you check carefully. The best way to check is to look at them and see if the bifocal is on the bottom. *
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Or else I was pulling your leg. :-)

Come on, Mike! I gave you a perfect opening and you didn't take it.

And by the way, I really did see someone carrying booze in a litter somewhere or other, but I'm hanged if I can remember where.

As for litre. Sure. “Six litres of petrol, please. And wipe off the windscreen if you would, mate. I've a leather in the boot if you need one. ”

Heard that for four years.

The best one I ever heard over there, though, was this one:

I am riding the bus to the Kensington Museum. Some jerk in a mini (car, not skirt) cuts off the bus driver. I watch his face turn red. He opens his mouth. I listen in anticipation, knowing the air in the bus is about to turn blue.

“Clever fellow!” the bus driver says.

I come to the conclusion that I know why we won the Revolutionary War. Better vocabulary.

5 April 2009 at 2:14 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Your paste is getting too thick.

The last rodeo I went to I was sitting in the car for some reason and watched a man come out the gate in a wheel chair. go to his car, get a bottle of booze and pour it into another container, then put the container in a basket under his wheel chair and go back into the rodeo.
Close enough for alcohol in a litter?

6 April 2009 at 11:43 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Was he one of the contestants?

6 April 2009 at 1:01 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

NO

7 April 2009 at 12:13 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Wanna bet he used to be a contestant? Hence the wheelchair?

7 April 2009 at 1:58 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Don't think so . Doubt if he ever knew the head from the tail on a horse.

8 April 2009 at 5:29 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

A joke, Pat. A joke. :-)

Actually, from what I've read, Rodeo riding is one very dangerous occupation. For just one thing, I've read that all that slamming up and down the riders take on horse, bull, and whatever, sometimes results in a kidney getting knocked loose, which they say is one of the most painful things that can happen to you. And somewhere or other I read a statistic on broken bones. Oy!

Clint Eastwood once made a movie called Bronco Billy or something. I missed it and it never came around again that I know of. Was some kind of almost documentary about how tough rodeo riding is.

By the way, I've read about the different ways they break horses and camels in one country or another. I'm glad I missed out on that. Not my idea of an easy way to make a buck.

Uh-oh! Unintended pun.

8 April 2009 at 8:05 a.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Bronco Billy, a documnetary about rodeo that's a good one!
“Right turn Clyde”

8 April 2009 at 8:19 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Have you given any thought about the steer wrestling? Riding full speed on a horse, lean over and fall to grab a steers horns and take him to the ground.
Getting your foot hung in a stirrup and drug down the arena when you try get off to tie a calf.
Even the pickup men for the riders are sometimes pulled off thier horses.
Clowns in the arena to keep the bulls away from fallen riders.

Rodeo contestants and workers are not sissys.
Stupid maybe. (: JOKE

9 April 2009 at 5:56 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“almost”

“Have you given any thought about the steer wresting?”

The first image evoked by that sentence is two steers circling each other, forelegs interlocked, eyeball to eyeball, with two falls out of three taking the event.

But in serious answer to your question: Only in nightmares.

By the way, Pat, have you ever seen any of the paintings and drawings left by the Minoan civilization? They used to run at a bull, dive headfirst at it with their arms out, and catapult over it. It was apparently some kind of “coming of age” ritual, among other things they did re the bull. The Spanish focus on bulls apparently has some connection with that civilization, since there were Minoan cities cities on the Spanish coast.

And the Egyptians used to mummify whole doggone bulls. Can you imagine what that looks like? Or how in the world they did it? There's a place in Egypt called the Serapeum where hundreds of the crazy things are stored underground.

And that ain't no bull! It's all religious stuff.

What I like about rodeo is that it comes from what hard working cowboys used to do on a daily basis to get the job done. Because of that it's more than just showmanship. It's a demonstration of the strength, courage, and ability it takes to do a doggone difficult job.

That makes it very different from baseball, football, basketball, golf, and so on. No one ever had to lasso a wild ball, wrestle it to the ground, brand it, and send it back to the herd. Nor did the aboriginals track ferocious balls through the forest, slipping quietly through the trees to get close enough to loose an arrow, taking down a proud spheroid and bringing back a hard won prize to a waiting and expectant village for all to feast upon.

By the way, you ever seen that movie Will Penny?

I always thought that was a fairly realistic look at the real West.

9 April 2009 at 7:53 a.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
No I haven't seen the art you asked about or the movie Will Penny.

9 April 2009 at 8:47 a.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

You guys didn't get off track, but have just come upon a unique way for Gila County to meet expenses. You just need someone to pull all the threads together into a cohesive whole. Gila County is going to have a guy in a wheelchair selling alcohol in 1 1/2 pint container marked as a quart at the rodeo. Then this guy is going to miraculously rise from his chair stating that the alcohol cured him. Then the guy formerly in the wheel chair will enter the bull riding event. He will beat Clint Eastwood, the surprise visitor to the rodeo. Clint Eastwood comes in second in the event. Gila County will immediately mark up the alcohol price and budget problem solved. . The money will just roll in!!!

9 April 2009 at 9:04 a.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

I forgot to mention that Clint Eastwood was in the area because he was filming the western “Under the Tonto Rim,” based on the novels by Zane Grey. Of course, that tidbit might be just the thing that does manage to get us off track. Also, Clint Eastwood attributed his excellent performance in the rodeo to his consumption of that fabulous Gila County alcohol!!

9 April 2009 at 10:24 a.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

BUT, did you know that the rodeo alliance was renting the Zane Grey cabin for Clint Eastwood to stay in?

10 April 2009 at 6:56 a.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

Shovelhead, we can always depend on you to know the full story! :-)

10 April 2009 at 11:42 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Pat,

“No I haven't seen the art you asked about or the movie Will Penny.”
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“BUT, did you know that the rodeo alliance was renting the Zane Grey cabin for Clint Eastwood to stay in?”

Okay, I'll bite. For once I can't tell whether or not you guys are kidding.

10 April 2009 at 1:24 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I didin't write about Eastwood and Grey Cabin, but they might as well use it for something.
Another Town joke along with the Pioneer Park. Excuse me, Deming Plaza.

I wasn't kidding about the art or Will Penny.

11 April 2009 at 12:42 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Pat,

“I wasn't kidding about the art or Will Penny.”

Sorry, wasn't asking that question of you.

I was asking Bernice and Shovehead about whether or not Clint Eastwood is actually in the area and making a film and just accidentally put your name at the top of the post because I wanted to make this comment, which I left out: If you get a chance to see Will Penny, do it. It's a good movie.

By the way, did we meet in the Walmart parking lot Friday at about 1 PM?

11 April 2009 at 1 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Tom, Clint Eastwood was here but left when a plumbing problem developed and no one had a left handed monkey wrench to fix the drain in the outhouse at the cabin!
Sorry you missed him.
Maybe Bernice can tell you more about the unfortunate incident.

11 April 2009 at 2:02 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I don't think I was at Walmart at 1 PM on Friday, but then again I may have been. (:

12 April 2009 at 12:38 p.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Mike,

Okay. :-)

Pat,

I was driving into Walmart's main entrance, in the left lane, ready to turn left.

Coming at me in my lane was a little old lady. She saw me, did a double take, whipped across the double yellow line back onto her own side of the road, and waved, looking very worried.

I smiled and waved back.

Sure that wasn't you?

12 April 2009 at 1:33 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I never drive on the wrong side of the road !
There are a lot of white pt cruisers here in town with little old ladies driving them.

12 April 2009 at 5:14 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Tom, do you feel the tugging at your leg yet?

12 April 2009 at 7:23 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
I remember !
I was in physical therapy untill 12:30 Fri. near the hospital and went straight home down Historic Main St. Was nowhere near Walmart.

13 April 2009 at 2:52 a.m.

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SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

No actually Clint Eastwood, disguised as a little old lady, was driving in the Wal-Mart parking lot when a white hairy faced man cut him/her off and waved. Clint is now lurking and waiting for this individual so that he can say the line he made famouns, “Go ahead, make my day.” That white hairy faced man had better watch out!!

13 April 2009 at 11:36 a.m.

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Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

By the way, folks. That really happened. Poor little old lady, she really looked embarrassed. I tried to lighten things up for her with the smile and the wave. Hope she didn't feel too bad. We all make mistakes.

Bernice,

That was not Clint Eastwood you saw. It was Rowdy Yates.

13 April 2009 at 1:53 p.m.

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patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
You are driving me crazier than I was. You know memory is the first to go. (:
Had to look it up. Rawhide, never missed one.

13 April 2009 at 4:26 p.m.

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Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

That's it I got it!
You remind me of Wishbone!