Payson Roundup

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

++++++++++++
Here's a solution to all the controversy over full-body scanners at the airports. Have a booth that you can step into that will not X-ray you, but will detonate any explosive device you may have on you. 

It would be a win-win for everyone. There would be none of this crap about racial profiling and it would eliminate a long expensive trial. Justice would be swift and sure.
++++++++++++
 Amen!

I'll vote for it.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Ditto. It is radical, but so are the terrorists!
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Well, that's three votes. Maybe we can get something going.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Make it 4.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Hello Michael. I haven't been on the radio for a long time. Remember Fred, WA6VHB? You write a nice letter. That 70% cut sounds about right! If they had nuclear weapons, Mike, they would have put them aboard the airplanes which took down the twin towers. 73
-Fred

MJA (Michael Alexander) says…

Yeah, that's fine until one of them straps on a mini-nuke… what kinda booth we gonna set up for that?

PS: I'm surprised there's no mention of Congresswoman Kirkpatrick's latest PR gimmick. I just sent her this letter:

Congresswoman Kirkpatrick,

I am not impressed with your proposed 5% pay cut for Congress… beginning next January. I'd like to see you try 70%… starting today! That's exactly how much my business has been off over the last 14 months while you and the president have been wasting our time playing politics.

And if today's speech can be believed, it doesn't look like it's anywhere near over.

Please be advised once again that, for me and for thousands of other small businesses back here in your district, it's only going to get worse if you and your party use budget reconciliation to pass the tax increases that you've buried in your health care bill.

And don't think it's going unnoticed that your tax increases will go into effect immediately, but that our “benefits” won't begin for another 4 or even 5 years, just so you can conceal the actual cost of the bill in the out years. If I use that kind of a bookeeping gimmick with the IRS and tell them that it was underwritten by you, do you think they'll let me get away with it?

Oh, and by the way, those left-leaning analysts back east may want us to believe that a bet on your re-election is “probably safe”, but it looks to me (and many others, I might add) that they're whistling past the graveyard, and that neither the president nor the speaker care nearly as much for your political future as they do for their partisan agenda.

I sincerely hope you're smarter than that.

I know I am.

Your watchful constituent,

Michael J. Alexander
Strawberry, AZ
(928) 476-####

SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

Good suggestion for solving the full body scan problem. However,, it would have to be built to contain the blast as you wouldn't want innocent people to be injured when the bomb went off.

Excellent letter to the Congresswoman. I wish we could really do something about the Legislative Branch. They are high salaried, have benefits to die for, and are so worried about being re-elected that they don't even pass any worthwhile legislation. All they do is squabble like a bunch of kids.

MJA (Michael Alexander) says…

Hey Fred… it's definitely been awhile! Haven't been on the air in years, probably not since your last sign-off… no kidding. Still have all the gear (in boxes out in the garage), but no antenna - lost both masts (2m & 6m) the winter of '05. Believe it or not, without all the QRM around here, the realtionship with the XYL has improved… go figure.

As for those Islamo-nukes, I know it's hard to believe, but it's almost 10 years since 9-11. You're right… the fact that they didn't use them is proof that they didn't have them. And I would just love to think that they've been holed up in a cave playing backgammon all this time, but when I really think about it - what they're up to all around the world, even here in the USA - I have a hard time sleeping at night. They want a bomb, and they want it bad. Unfortuantely, when they get one, a whole bunch of Americans somewhere are going to be among the first to know.

OK… gotta go spend some time with my bride… she TIVO'd American Idol and it's the girls' night.

73. NØQAN

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Mike, that was the best written letter I've read in a long, long time! Thanks for sending it!

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Yes Michael, I took the radio out of the truck the last time I went to the VA Medical center in Phoenix. I've had bad luck with radios being stolen out of the vehicle. The good part is that we now have our own VA Medical clinic here in Payson. I also took the antenna off the truck so the car wash couldn't damage it. Anyway the contacts on the forums have been a lot more convenient than listening to the radio!
73 Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“However,, it would have to be built to contain the blast as you wouldn't want innocent people to be injured when the bomb went off.”

Phooey, Bernice! If they're trying to get a cheap thrill by sneaking a peek at the scanner they deserve what they get. :-)

Mike, re your comment on nuclear weapons, check the string i just put up about Iran.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Are we doomed to nuclear attack. Seems like they got aircraft into NYC and the Pentagon without much difficulty. The next time will it be with nuclear bombs. Iran could be the next nuclear aggressor. We all should have trouble sleeping at night.
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Seems like they got aircraft into NYC and the Pentagon without much difficulty.”

I think I've got you folks worrying too much. I don't think Iran has a prayer of making an atom bomb.

The attack on NYC and the Pentagon was an absolute stroke of genius. Prior to that time anyone who wanted to blow up an aircraft, or use an aircraft to blow something up, had to somehow or other sneak explosives aboard. But some genius, somewhere realized that a recently fueled aircraft carrying a heavy load of fuel was in and of itself a flying bomb.

Not only that, but before 9-11 people who tried blowing up buildings always tried to do it by planting sufficient explosives at its base to bring down the building. Realizing that hitting a tall building somewhere a few stories below its top and causing a fire hot enough to to melt steel beams, which causes the collapse of one story, whose failure drops the stories above it onto those below, collapsing the entire building was an incredible stroke of genius.

We don't know who thought of all that, but it is those two sets of facts which make flying so dangerous these days. Any recently fueled aircraft is a flying missile.

BUT making a nuclear weapon requires more than a brilliant idea—or even two. It requires the slow accumulation of enriched uranium, how much depending on how enriched it is. Uranium containing 85% or more of 235 is known as weapons grade, though for a crude, inefficient weapon 20% is sufficient.

It also requires some very fancy technlogogy. “All” you have to do to make a nuclear weapon if you have the uranium is put it together all at once. Yep, th-th-that's all, folks! The original A-bombs used an “implosion lens” a spherical shaped charge of TNT that blasted the uranium together, and held it together long enough, for it to reach critical mass and fission.

The critical mass for the low-grade uranium Iran is likely to accumulate requires a LOT of uranium. With 20% U-235 it's about 900 pounds; with 15% U-235, it's over 1,300 pounds.

You have to have some way of keeping the uranium apart until you want it together. Otherwise it will fry you and everything else around it. And you have to figure some way to get the bomb where you need it. The equipment to do all that weighs a LOT. The movies showing a warhead being carried around are science fiction. It requires 115 pounds of PURE U-235, plus the means to house it, and the means to keep it shielded and separated. I can't imagine a warhead that someone could lift.

Anyway, some nut in Iran might be able to make what is called a “dirty bomb” (which is just a plain old bomb with a lot of radioactive material in it that gets spread around), but that's about that.

Why don't we get Israel to hit the nuclear plants in Iran like they did the ones in Iraq? Might as well get something for our $5 billion a year.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Thanks Tom, for the education on the nuclear bomb business. In the movies we see highly developed missiles onboard aircraft and submarines. It's easy to imagine them in the hands of terrorists. I see too many movies …sigh.

“Why don't we get Israel to hit the nuclear plants in Iran like they did the ones in Iraq?”
That would solve the nuclear proliferation problem in Iran!!
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Come to think of it I haven't checked on the critical mass for plutonium bombs. It would be a lot smaller, maybe even 30 or 40 pounds, but there's no such thing as “plutonium enrichment.” Plutonium is an artificial element. You have to first be able to create it.

Have you ever read about the Manhattan Project. There were a few scientists who worked on it who were genuinely worried they would start a chain reaction which would lead to the end of the earth. Nevertheless, they went ahead with the work.

Reminds me of the old saw that if someone ever builds the doomsday weapon we're all in trouble because you just know he's going to have to try it out—just once.

“That would solve the nuclear proliferation problem in Iran!!”

It sure worked for Iraq. The Iraqi's were working on the bomb with the help of the Russians. The Israelis didn't like it. Out came the planes. Wham! No more nuclear weapons plants.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Want a laugh? Listen to this.

Ever read the column in which I mentioned getting in three 88 pounds classified crates in Pakistan intended for delivery to the Pakistani government?

Oddest thing I had ever seen.

Cargo in those days was usually tied down in three or four stacks, and restrained from all four sides. But here, between the stacks, were these three little crates about the size of—um-m-m-m—boxes containing DVD players. You know, six inches thick, rectangular. Made of solid wood, by the way. And each weighing 90 pounds. That's a lot for such a small crate.

They were classified as secret, so I carried them down and put them in my jeep where I could keep an eye on them, and on Hasan, my assistant, who got ordered to stay in the jeep and call me if anyone even looked at them cross eyed. All the manifest said was, “Three crates. 88 lbs each. secret. Deliver to American Ambassador.”

Anyway, the three crates were sitting in the back seat of my jeep stacked on top of each other. After I unloaded the other 22,000 lbs of cargo I drove to the embassy. It was a Saturday evening so I parked my jeep, told Hasan my assistant that he was a dead man if the third crate disappeared, put the other two one on each shoulder, and carried them upstairs to the Marine security guard on duty.

Classified cargo goes from hand to hand, and each person who turns it over gets a signed copy of the manifest from the person he gives it to. As I was tearing off a copy off the stack of manifests to get it signed, a Special Handling label fell out of the stack. It was originally stapled to the top of the stack, and should have still been there where you could see it, but evidently some lame brain had torn off the top copy instead of the bottom one, and had just stuck the special handling label inside the stack.

What did the label say? “Warning! Do not place these crates within 10 feet of each other!”

I had just carried the %$#@! things upstairs on either side of my head! And they were sitting in the jeep for two hours. Well, we got them apart in a hurry, and the next day I went to a military doctor. My dosimeter was jet black.

Boy was I sick! I could upchuck the length of a football field and empty out the other way through a keyhole at 30 paces. Lost a bunch of hair too. Just fell out.

They gave me tranquilizers and stomach settling stuff.

As you have no doubt noticed I survived.

I do not glow in the dark.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

That's worse than being shot! Why didn't the idiots who packed the boxes use the radiation symbols which are so easily recognizable?
I'd have packed the boxes with stickers on all sides! I suppose the Special Handling Label also failed to have the radiation symbol.
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Why didn't the idiots who packed the boxes use the radiation symbols which are so easily recognizable?”

:-) You forgot the classification of the crates. Secret, remember? The fact that it was radioactive WAS the secret.

That's like the time on Operation Great Shelf, which was classified secret, I watched brand new equipment going to Vietnam, but saw old WWII junk coming back. I looked at my OIC, a lieutenant, and said, “Hey! What the hell's going on? We shipped brand new stuff out for 11 days and now we're getting back beat up old WWII stuff.”

Poor guy almost had a heart attack. “SH-h-h-h-h, Garrett! That's what's classified!”

Meantime some high ranking brass had turned around and stood listening. I told my junior high school lieutenant, “Listen, Lieutenant, next time they tell you something is classified, it might pay you to tell the troops what's classified about it so they know what not to talk about when it's over. By now they're talking about that WWII junk in every bar in Agana.”

A full bird colonel strolled over and told the lieutenant the same thing—for about ten minutes. Then he came over to me and asked what we had been told. I told him all the lieutenant had said was, “Men, this mission is classified secret.” The assumption, of course, was that the secret was the fact that the mission was taking place.

The colonel then went back and spent another ten minutes talking to Lt. Fuzz.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Tom.
In the military as in civilian life some weird stuff goes on. When I watch a movie about a military operation in which I detect a gross error committed by some one, I think no, that would never happen. Your stories prove otherwise!
-Fred

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Fred, I friend of mine watched the tv series JAG religiously. After the show he would call me and ask me questions about whether a scene was real or not. As he had never been in the military.he didn't know but believed what he was watching. I finally told him it was a television show and it was entertainment. If they showed only factual scenes it would be a military training film!

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“If they showed only factual scenes it would be a military training film!”

I don't know, Mike. Some of those training films were about as far removed from reality as anything I've ever seen. I'll never forget the one they came out with about gas masks back in 1972. Prior to that time it was assumed that the first thing you did when you hit the beach was take the gas mask out of its pouch and toss it so you had a handy dandy bag to collect goodies in. Goodies being anything you could eat, drink, or trade for sex.

Then came this crazy film that said, “In the nuclear era the wise soldier finds that the M-92 A1 mask is his best friend during a combat situation.”

Then they showed Private Smart Guy walking into a cloud of pretty green gas, falling down on the ground, ripping open his pouch and finding a dozen eggs instead of his trusty M-92 A-1, and expiring just as Private Uptight came upon him (all suited up, of course). Private Smart Guy's last words, with his hand patting the other guy's mask were, “Hang onto your mask, soldier. It's your best frien-n-n-nd.” Fade to gray.

It was the only training film the troops made me show over and over again. Never heard guys laugh so hard.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

I remember taking off the gas mask in basic training, and gasping in horror as I noticed my wrist watch had turned green from the chlorine. Never again did I wear gold while in the Army. Any other gas mask story?
-Fred

SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

Tom, this is in response to your “Phooey _______________if they are trying a sneak _____________they deserve what they get.” Guess I didn't make myself clear or I once again didn't understand. The room, or whatever, wouldn't be built to scan it would just be built to detect a bomb and explode the bomb. You enter with no bomb you leave intact. You enter with bomb sorry that's the end of you. That's what I thought Fred meant.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

“You enter with bomb sorry that's the end of you. That's what I thought Fred meant.” Right Bernice. That's what Tom implied in his post way up at the start of the string! You wouldn't need to detonate the nuclear device they were carrying. Just have a trap door at the bottom of the booth. Trap door opens…. bad guy drops into pit of angry, hungry baboons!!!
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Never again did I wear gold while in the Army.”

Gold doesn't change color, Fred. Brass does. Better check that watch. :-)

And yes, I have a gas mask story.

We used to take the troops through the gas chamber during basic, of course. They had tear gas tablets they used to heat to generate the gas, usually two tablets on each of three heaters. The troops went in with their masks on, took them off after a short lecture, and went out after having recited their serial number, one after the other. Gave them a little taste of gas and was supposed to motivate them to not throw it away.

One time, though, the gas guy, a tech sergeant, screwed up and when I went in to check the chamber (no mask, of course, DI's are supposed to be indestructible) it was like a spring day in there. So the genius gas guy, even though I argued with him, decided to throw in a gas grenade.

Well, I took my troops in, but one look at the solid wall of gas in there convinced me that this time I had better go in with a mask. I also put two five gallon water fire extinguishers outside the doors the troops were supposed to come out of, and was very careful not to stand in front of them.

My, oh my! I almost laughed my mask off my face as the gas guy gave the command, “Take off your masks, Line up and call out your serial number on the way out.”

Maybe two men yelled out their serial numbers. But then the gas hit them, slammed their eyes shut, and—of course—they panicked.

Right over one lame brain gas guy, who lost his mask during the melee.

My only problem was convincing my men not to rub their eyes. I had prepared by putting two five gallon water fire extinguishers right outside the doors. I and my assistant DI hosed out eyes for a long time. No harm done.

PS: the gas guy was a tech sergeant. I had just one stripe at the time.

“Tom, this is in response to your…”

Sorry, Bernice. I was only kidding around.

“…bad guy drops into pit of angry, hungry baboons!!!”

Reminds me of something funny. I went on a prisoner chase once, all the way up to Truax Field, Wisconsin, from Wichita Falls, Texas. The kid they sent with me was a volunteer. Just my luck. He was the worst clutz I ever ran across. While I was explaining what we would do to ensure that the prisoner stayed straight he looked me in the eye and confessed that he was the world's worst chicken and had only volunteered for the duty because he came from Wisconsin and thought he might get to see his girl friend. Then, as I snapping the cuffs on the six foot tall prisoner an Air Police sergeant took me aside and told me the guy had tried to commit suicide three times and was dangerous.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Oh goody!” I thought. “Just what I need! Two days on a train. Just me, my little .45 automatic, some nut, and a one stripe airman who can't find his behind with both hands.”

Then, on the train during the first meal the prisoner looked at me and told me, “You're never going to get me back there alive. I'm going to take you out and get my hands on that forty-five.”

Mistake! His first lesson was that he who makes threats gets to eat his food with his hands because he ain't gettin nothin with a sharp edge or points on it.

His second lesson was that it's hard to eat with your hands when they're cuffed to your chair, and also that when your guard feeds you he may just decide to slam the food in your face and hope you know how to lick it off your chin and swallow it.

That was not a happy night—for him.

Next morning we got to Chicago. Knowing how cities work I took prisoner and one-stripe dolt with me to the nearest police station. It is a given that the toughest police station in town is the one nearest the tracks. We had an eight hour layover and I was authorized to leave my prisoner with the police under such circumstances.

“Listen, sarge,” I told one big Polish cop named Wazowski sitting at the desk in the police station, “this clown is giving me a hard time. Says he's going to take this forty-five away from me and use it on me. I'm not worried about it, but it would be really nice if you made a believer out of him while I'm off doing something else.”

When I came back seven hours later the guy was dead white. “Boy!” he told me. “Am I glad you're back!”

It was winter—in Chicago. Turns out they stripped him naked, put him in a cell down in the sub-basement, and let him dance around for seven hours to keep from being eaten by the roaches.

“Think that's something?”I asked the prisoner. “We have two more layovers. Wait'll you see what it's like in Saint Louis and Tulsa.”

“Oh, God! Don't put me in another place like that.”

“Maybe, maybe not. First let me show you something.”

I gave my forty-five to el-clutzo to hold. Then I took my night stick held it in the middle, let the prisoner get a good grip on it with both hands, and told him to take it away from me. I'm five-eight. When he got up and brushed himself off I asked him if he saw the point.

Never seen a guy change so much! He was such a pussycat that I even took him with me to the museum in Saint Louis.

And we didn't have to stop in Tulsa, of course.

I smile every time I think of that trip.

By the way, I cheated on the night stick thing. Little bit of anatomy that most people don't know. Works every time.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

“Gold doesn't change color, Fred. Brass does. Better check that watch. :-)”
I no longer have that watch, Tom. I think what happens is that most watches and jewelry which are said to be gold, are only partially gold. Perhaps 24 k gold is not affected by chlorine. But if it has copper content, it will turn green. Correct?
-Fred

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

“By the way, I cheated on the night stick thing. Little bit of anatomy that most people don't know. Works every time.”
OK Tom, What is the thing with the night stick.
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“But if it has copper content, it will turn green.”

Maybe. I'd have to test that to be sure. I can't imagine 18 k turning green. In fact, I have a hard time imagining anything that was “gold” turning. The metals are tightly bound in solution. I'll say it again: I don't know.

I know how to test it though. Want to be the lab guy? Here's how:

Put whatever you want to test in a jar with a screw top. Make two holes in the top, one of them the size of a piece of plastic tubing (any size will do). Take another jar with a screw top. Make two holes in its top. Make one hole the same size as the hole in the other top, the one you put the tubing into. Connect the two jars, being sure that the tubing does not go more than an inch or so into the jar. Attach a piece of tubing to a plastic funnel and slide it through the second whole in the top of the second jar. Make sure that when the cap is put on, the tubing from the funnel will go below the surface of a liquid which fills the jar halfway.

Okay apparatus ready. Put gold in jar 1. Fill jar 2 half full of ordinary bleach. Put on both tops. You should now have two jars connected together, a hole in the cap of jar 1, and a funnel sticking out of jar 2 with the tubing connected to the funnel under the surface of the bleach. Pour muriatic acid down the funnel. The green gas being generated will pour into jar 1.

Observe what happens.

PS: Do outdoors. Stay upwind. Chlorine gas is not dangerous as long as you don't breathe it.

PPS: This is the easiest way there is to get rid of gophers. Just use their little tunnels as jar 1. Chlorine is heavy stuff. It will pour downhill throughout the tunnels. Poof! No gophers. They don't have time to wall up the tunnels by the way.

It's cheap too!

You can also just pour bleach down the hole followed by HCl, but you'll waste a lot because it will soak into the ground. Easier though.

PPPS: Now you know how to generate chlorine gas with ordinary household chemicals.

The reaction is 2NaHClO3 + HCl — 2H2O + Cl2 + 2NaCl

I'll send you an e-mail on the night stick thing.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
Secrets again ? We are all adults.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Tom. I would test that reaction if I had the HCl, the gold and the jars with caps. I would have used the keyboard to show the “yield” sign, like this: 2NaHClO3 + HCl -> 2H2O + Cl2 + 2NaCl. I'll settle for the good chance that the watch was made with some copper or brass content.
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

HCl is just muriatic acid, available in any hardware store.

I don't both with the yield sign when I'm working on this OS X laptop. On my OS 9 machines I have a good set if dingbats which includes it.

We could try dissolved the watch to see what's in it. :-)

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

OK Tom.
Comprehended. Too bad I don't have a chemistry lab and some supplies. :-)
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

I don't know anything about chemistry except you don't get into a shower to clean it with Clorox and ammonia. (:

Learned that 43 yrs, ago and one thing I didn't forget.

thechief (Chief Hinton) says…

Great letter to Kirtparick Micheal, I feel the same way. I call her about once a week at her Washington Office. The person that answers her phone said she was getting hundreds of calls like mine. I bet Ann does not know she is saying that. Stay after her.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

HClO3 + NH4OH -> *

Hm-m-m-m. Don't know for sure if you'd get a reaction, but the bleach (HClO3) would be giving off chlorine gas and the ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH) is just ammonia gas dissolved in water (NH3 +H2O) and would be giving off ammonia. Yes, yes, yes. I would say that would be one very unpleasant shower. It's safe to get back in there now though, Pat. :-)

* Thanks, Fred.

By the way, Fred. verify something for me. They used chlorine gas in the gas chamber during your basic training?

I agree with you, Chief. Makes you think, doesn't it? In one of the votes that got the %$#@! Socialized Medicine health car bill through the House it only passed by 4 votes. Two of them were our representative (one she voted yes, and one she didn't vote no). Shows how important every single representative is.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

“Fred. verify something for me. They used chlorine gas in the gas chamber during your basic training?”

Yes Tom, it was chlorine gas. We were warned to turn our belt buckles around to avoid turning them green.
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

What year was that, Fred?

It seems crazy to use a dangerous gas, one that if accidentally breathed can cause a lifetime disability. We used tear gas. Effective, but “safe.” (It could cause temporary eye irritation if you rubbed your eyes). But chlorine? Seems pointless. In fact, it seems downright reckless. Did they do the traditional thing? That is, did they have the troops take off their masks and exit after getting an experience of gas?

Mike, what did the Marines use. Do you know?

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Tom. That was in 1961. Yes, they had the troops take off their masks and exit after getting an experience of gas? The chlorine caused eye irritation. Perhaps they ran out of tear gas?
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Perhaps they ran out of tear gas?”

More likely brains.

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

We used CS gas. I don't know what it was made of but it sure made your nose run, eyes water, and cough like crazy :)

SantaBerry (Bernice Winandy) says…

Pat, Interesting that you mentioned the no no about bleach and amonia. My son, when he was at his first job (at one of those “fast food” steak places), made the mistake of mixing the two together when cleaning up after the restuarant closed. My son and his fellow worker ended up in the emergency room There they were side by side in their steak house uniforms getting oxygen. My son has not made the same mistake again.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Bernice,
It only takes one time to make that mistake. It is one of those things you don't forget.
One of the bottles is labled now do not mix.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“We used CS gas. I don't know what it was made of but it sure made your nose run, eyes water, and cough like crazy :)”

Makes sense.

I've run into some folks wearing perfumes lately that do the same thing, :-)

Pat, which of the two was it that bothered you? Did you get a strong whiff of ammonia or something else?

By the way, Pat, I was talking to someone today about nursing homes and mentioned the place where you had Rony for a time,the one you liked—with pines outside the windows.What was the name?

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Tom,
It was the combination of mixing the ammonia and clorox.
The Powell House. It is not a nursing home but an assisted living I will send you an e-mail.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“It was the combination of mixing the ammonia and clorox.”

I got that, Pat, but the reaction either gave off chlorine gas or ammonia gas. They smell very different. I just wondered if you could remember which it was.

Just curiosity. Not important, unless you can remember.

Back when I was teaching chemistry I had five storerooms filled with chemicals, some of the most dangerous chemicals on the planet. Needless to say, anything my high school lab assistants shouldn't get into was under triple lock. Nevertheless, there were times at which I used to worry.

For example, you might not think there was any danger is carrying a gallon bottle of hydrochloric acid or ammonium hydroxide, but I used to brief my kids very carefully. I always told them, “If you are carrying either one of those two liquids and the bottle slips out of your hand DO NOT stop to watch it fall. Turn and run. Run as fast as you can. If you do what is natural you will probably die.

I meant it. The natural thing to do is to stop, draw in a breath, and say, “Oh!”

That “draw in a breath” would kill you. Both of those products are nothing more than a gas dissolved in water. If dropped they would release enormous amounts of the gas (either ammonia or hydrogen chloride), and breathing in a deadly gas like that in that quantity would knock you flat—in a pool of poisonous gas through which no one could get to you to rescue you, at least not in time to save you.

In the end I simply did not allow the kids to handle anything which had any potential to harm them, however unlikely it might be.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Smell h- - -. I couldn't breathe.

I have another story about strange things happening in the shower. My oldest son was unloading dry cement out of rail cars and had fairly long hair against my wishes, but he was over 18.
He got cement in his hair and when he got home, jumped into the shower I can't rememer the name of the shampoo because they don't sell it here anymore. It was a test product.
But when the water hit his hair with the cement and the shampoo it caused some kind of chemical reaction and he started yelling like crazy. He hadn't locked the door and I went in to see what was wrong. There were terrible fumes and my eyes started watering and I couldn't breathe either. Got him out and into the kitchen to rinse the stuff out of his hair.
Never did know what happend but he did go get his hair cut really short like his mother liked it.
I remember there was shampoo and hair conditioner in one bottle.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Great story Pat. I was laughing throughout. I was anticipating that the new shampoo would have had a reaction with the cement causing the hair to clump! Never seen that happen, but it would be a good reason to get the hair cut!
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

His hair didn't clump.
I wrote to the company that made the shampoo, Lever Bros. but never recieved an answer.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Smell h- - -. I couldn't breathe.”

That answers the question. It was ammonia that was released. Chlorine is bad, but it isn't like ammonia. Chlorine will kill you, or ruin your lungs forever (burns them), but the reaction to it is not as radical as the reaction to ammonia.

Two interesting facts:

One is a story. When I was practice-teaching chemistry I had a class with a dumb-adze kid who was convinced he was going to do something to shake me up. Kept on trying, failing, and getting more desperate every day.

Poor dummy. It was 1975. I was a 43 year old retired master sergeant. How he thought he was going to get me shook up I don't know.

Anyway, knowing what he was like, I called him up front one day to “help me” with a demonstration. Sitting on the bench was an open bottle of 15 molar ammonium hydroxide, about a hundred times more concentrated than any ammonia you've ever smelled.

I told him, “Whatever you do, don't smell that open bottle.”

He did, of course. My! My! It was four days before he came back to school.

The other interesting thing is the derivation of “ammonia.” I'm sure you're heard of sal ammoniac, the old common name for ammonium chloride. It's Latin. The translation is “salt from Egypt.” To the Romans, ancient Egypt was associated with the god Amen Ra, or for short for the Romans “Ammon.” The Egyptians raised a lot of cattle. By digging up the dirt where the cattle stood all the time (and urinated), throwing it in water, stirring it around, letting it settle, pouring off the clear liquid, and drying it to a powder they got — ammonium chloride.

And that's where our word ammonia came from.

More?

Our letter M comes from the top of the Egyptian owl symbol. See the ears? M

And our N comes from the Egyptian N sound, which is the name of the Nile River and looks like waves—like this: vvvvvvv Can you see how you could shorten that to an N?

“I wrote to the company that made the shampoo, Lever Bros. but never recieved an answer.”

Surprise!

That letter should have gone to a lawyer.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

I have never been the sueing kind of person, but in the last 4 yrs, I am beginning to change my mind. big time.

When my brother in-law scrubbed his swimming pool every spring years ago he used some kind of acid, and he put ammonia on a cloth and held it over his nose and mouth so he could breathe without the acid fumes bothering him. He is will be 78 in Sept. and in fairly good health. Didn't quit racing off road trucks till almost 60.
Don't think he has ever been near a hospital for anything.
The mixture didn't seem to affect him or his sons that helped him. I thought they were nuts.
He has a couple of college degrees. Maybe in stupidy. (:

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“When my brother in-law scrubbed his swimming pool every spring years ago he used some kind of acid, and he put ammonia on a cloth and held it over his nose and mouth so he could breathe without the acid fumes bothering him.”

Makes good sense. The ammonia fumes would combine with the hydrochloric acid fumes and form ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac) which is fairly harmless.

I used to have eight bottles of acid and whatnot standing in trays at each end of the lab benches in chemistry. Both the ammonium hydroxide bottle and the HCl bottle in the tray ended up with a thin white layer on them because of the slight fumes escaping from the two bottles.