Payson Roundup

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

I guess I really have heard everything now. The legislature is trying to pass a bill about what people on food stamps can buy, not with food stamps, with ANY money they spend.

Naturally, they're against cigarettes, booze, soft drinks, and fattening foods.

What kind of lunkhead tries to legislate morality? If someone wants to spend his own money on something that's not good for him he has every right to do it.

What next? You can only spend your money on things that will lower your cholesterol?You have to exercise an hour a day? Eat your spinach? Maintain a low-salt diet? Chew each mouthful 23 times? Go to Sunday school to get your food stamps?

Does the female sponsor of the bill (I missed her name on the news so I can't tell you what it is) really think she a right to force people to do only those things which are good for them? Are people no longer allowed to be people just because they happen to be on food stamps?

Good God! This is America!

By the way, the same do-gooder who suggested this nut case law wants milk declared the official beverage of Arizona.

My comment: Dump the do-gooder in a food processor, feed her to the pigs with the rest of the slop, slaughter the pigs, and feed people pork instead of government mandated controls.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

You come up with an opinion I can't disagree with. I do agree with the sanctions against smoking. I know some very intelligent people who can not seem to quit smoking even when
they know it's killing them.
-Fred

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

'Smoking is what is killing people when the dr can't come with a real cause'

But Pat, don't you think that smoking is the real cause of pre-mature death in most cases? Certainly, I say let people spend their money on cigarettes, just as my second wife did. Lung cancer killed her.
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Fred,
Smoking is what is killing people when the dr can't come with a real cause.
I went into an emergency room with a piece of metal in my eye. The first words out of the Dr's mouth was Do you smoke? When I said yes, he said that's your problem. He had not looked at my chart or noticed my eye was watering, red and almost swollen shut.
Well you can imagine what hit the fan when I answered him back.

Tom, I like your last remark, a lot of people don't know that pigs eat meat, flesh or what ever you want to call it. They are not vegetarians like cattle and horses. Another bit of trivia. (:

Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) says…

Tom,
I think if you look into this issue further you will find out about what this is trying to put an end to. Some people on food stamps sell or negotiate with others, to sell their food stamps for a discounted cash amount so that the food stamp recipient can then purchase with that cash, items forbidden to be purchased with the food stamps. It's a food stamp black market and the program has to have some mechanism to stop the fraudulent use of this “welfare” that we all pick up the tab for.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Well you can imagine what hit the fan when I answered him back”

Knowing you as I do, was it the doctor? :-)

“Tom, I like your last remark, a lot of people don't know that pigs eat meat, flesh or what ever you want to call it. They are not vegetarians like cattle and horses. Another bit of trivia. (:”

I've read a few horror stories about people who fell and were injured while in a pig sty. I remember one in particular where someone lost some fingers.

“It's a food stamp black market and the program has to have some mechanism to stop the fraudulent use of this “welfare” that we all pick up the tab for.”

Right, Ron. I agree. There is a black market, and it does need to be stopped, but don't you agree that this silly adze bill isn't the way to d it? It's the usual mass-punishment method. Hit everyone, even the vast majority who aren't doing a thing wrong, to get at a few bad eggs.

And being a logical guy I know you can see the big flaw in the bill, namely who is going to monitor what people are spending their money on? That's a big enough hole to run a semi through.

There are much better ways to handle black marketeers. For example, when I was overseas in England we got our gas (with ration coupons) at 30 cents a gallon while the Brits were paying $1.65 for the same gas. Naturally, there were a few rare scuzzballs who tried to make a profit out of selling coupons. The Air Force took care of the problem in a flash by passing a reg that(a) made it worth the while of a Brit to turn in anyone who was doing it, and (b) taking anyone caught at it off the ration eligibility list, thereby letting him buy his gas for four years at $1.65 a gallon. You could do the same thing with this problem. The kind of scuzzballs who engage do such things would be only too happy to turn each other in for a $1000 cash reward. And we could rid ourselves of some people who don't deserve to be on food stamps.

” I do agree with the sanctions against smoking.”

Fred, do you mean sanctions against where people can smoke, or what? Your comment is a little confusing.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

People have been selling thier food stamps for 20 yrs. Why get excited now?
Pass another law that won't be enforced. Gives congress something to do.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Tom. I mean sanctions against the cigarettes. I.e. the high tax on smokes; the high end price.
When my wife was paying $30 to $40 a carton, I was hoping the price would go even higher in order to convince her to stop smoking. It didn't matter, she bought them anyway. I'm agreeing with you…..you can't control what people are going to spend their money on.
-Fred

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

Fred, I am genuinely sorry to hear about your wife.

As for cigarettes, I dislike the “education is the answer for everything” solution crowd, but in the case of cigarettes I have actually seen it work in my lifetime.

When I was a kid the idea of smoking being dangerous was looked upon as something between a joke (calling them “coffin nails,” for example) and an exaggeration dreamt up by do-gooders. Literally everyone smoked. It was just done, the normal thing. People who didn't smoke were looked upon as just a little odd.

Then the statistics began coming in. Prior to the 60's the number of years in which the general population had been smoking cigarettes had been too short to collect much in the way of meaningful data, but just about then it began to roll in. Soon, it was very plain that they would actually kill you. People began to quit and, more importantly, young people began to not start.

Today, a much smaller segment of the population never starts. That's a good thing.

By the way, I smoked 4 packs a day at the time I quit in 1965. I found quitting quite easy. I just stopped. No problem. I don't know why some people have trouble with it, but it's too bad they do.

Here's a funny one. Lolly and I married in June, 1960. She also smoked (Pall Malls). Around November or so I came home one day and she said she was quitting because the %$#@! smoke made her sick to her stomach (pregnant). Well, I couldn't very well smoke around her so I quit too. David was born in February, a bit premature. Some time in June I came home and there was Lolly smoking a nasty stale old Pall Mall.

“Hey!” I said, “I thought you gave up smoking.”

“Well, not forever.”

So I started again. Now this is interesting. I hadn't smoked for seven months, but I went right back to four packs a day, just like that.

Might as well tell you the rest. In 1965, while on Okinawa, I began having chest pains. Went to the base hospital. Got an EKG. Sad faced doctor told me my heart was doing the Conga. We sat down. Never saw such a sad face!

“Let's get some basic date.”
“Okay.”
“Do you smoke.”
“Yes.”
“How much.”
“Four pack a day.”
Whoops! We stopped right there. He told me that much nicotine in my body could account for my symptoms and suggested I cut down and come back in a month “so we can get some tests done.” So I just quit. No big deal. Went back. EKG.
Doctor (same one) came out with results, “Sorry, Sarge. I got you mixed up with a guy with a bad heart.”
“Yeah, that's me.”
“Nothing wrong with your heart. Best EKG I've ever seen. What did you do?”
“Quit smoking.”
End of story.
About two years ago I took one of those “nuclear” stress tests with a cardiologist. After I ran for a while he asked, “Okay. At this higher speed can you go another five minutes?”

“How about five hours?”

Told me I had the heart of a twenty year old.

Moral. Don't smoke.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Are the people trading food stamps to buy cigarettes spending thier money or ours?
I pay $118.50 for 2 cartons at the Rez. I pay for them with money I earned, not with food stamps or unemployment money.
Some people spend their money on alcohol, gambling, bottled water or worse.
We still have a few choices left. Maybe not good ones.

Now to unemployment. I hear people say, I deserve it I paid it. NO they didn't ! Their employer paid every penny of it.
I know people that work long enough to draw on it and then work at a job where they get paid cash without paying any taxes or having SS taken out of their pay. Then complain when it comes time to collect on SS they don't get enough.
Saw this happen many times when we cashed unemployment checks in Tonto Basin.
I know, off the subject again. (:

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Pat.
The price my wife paid for cigarettes was back 20 years ago. She bought them at the Rez too.
I smoked too. 2 packs a day. I started when I was drafted in the Army. When I was in Vietnam I got the smokes at the base PX for $1 a carton. YES $1 a carton. Like you say, everyone smoked. I quit when the information began being printed on the packs. It was almost too late for me. My doctor told me I have one third of my lung function gone. I didn't get cancer, and it's been enough years ago, I think my risk is low now.
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

I am not defending smoking but the three people I know that died from lung cancer never smoked a cigarette in thier life nor did anyone in their families.
If Drs. are so damn smart and positive smoking causes lung cancer why don't all smokers get it?
Why don't they know what causes all other cancers? They are trying to blame a lot of other cancers on smoking too. What about new born babies that are born with some form of cancer from non smoking parents?

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

I'd like to be able to answer your doubts about the cause of cancer.
All I can say, is that I stopped smoking when my mouth and throat became sore. My teeth became yellow. I had a persistent cough. I'm convinced smoking was the cause. When I stopped, the mouth and throat became normal.
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Fred,
What was your profession before you retired?
How about coal miners or any miners? Asbestos workers etc. Are they being counted among the lung cancer victims as smokers?
Medical profession is now saying don't barbecue with charcoal.

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“If Drs. are so damn smart and positive smoking causes lung cancer why don't all smokers get it?”

Basically, Pat, it appears that if you don't have a genetic predisposition for some forms of cancer you don't get them no matter what you do.

Works like this (just an analogy): Suppose it takes a score of a thousand to get cancer. Suppose you get 5 points a year just by being alive. That means you would have to live 200 years to get it. But if you do some things, you get your score multiplied. For some people the multiplier is a 2 for smoking. That sill means they'd have to live a hundred years to get it. But for some people the multiplier is 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, or 10. Someone with a ten would be getting 50 points a year and could die of cancer by age 20. And suppose also that there was a second multiplier, which could run from 2 through 5.

Think about it. Ten times five times the extra multiplier of—say—4, 200 points a year.

Apparently our genes have factors in them like that. One risk factor may put you at risk, two of them multiply your chance, three make it almost certain.

Some day the genes will be identified. Then people will be debating in Congress whether or not it is morally correct to “engineer” humans so they are immune to this, that, or the other thing. And whether it's morally correct to redesign us after we re born us for beauty, strength, intelligence, creativity, and so on, and so on, and so on.

PS: It's already going on. We actually had a string on the subject. Forget what they were doing, but it was genetic engineering all right.

“I had a persistent cough. I'm convinced smoking was the cause.”

Dead right, Fred. At least on the cough.

Your air passages are lined with little cilia (just like the ones you saw on the little critters we talked about). They move in waves, bringing up fine particles from your lungs et al. If you smoke a cigarette it paralyzes the cilia and they are unable to work (if I remember correctly but the number may be wrong) for roughly 8 hours. Garbage begins to collect in your air passages and the only way your can get rid of it is by coughing, which is basically what coughing is for. Hence the classic “smoker's cough.”

This aggravates the dangers of smoking and sometimes causes people to end up with emphysema. It's very dangerous to smoke if you are subjected to dust or other small particles. They collect in the lungs. Coal miners who smoke might as well point a gun at their heads. Same thing for people who work with brakes on cars.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Pat.
I have been an electronic lab or field engineering technician up until retirement. The work was clean most of the time. I don't know how many mine workers or other workers may have smoked.
My guess is that you have been very lucky with cigarettes. I sincerely hope you luck continues.
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Changing subjects kinda of. Did you know carburetor cleaner or WD 40 if used continually in your work will cause high cholesterol?
I know you didn't use those products in your work, just thought I would throw it out there.
We are not safe anywhere. (:

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“…used continually in your work will cause high cholesterol?”

Personally, I never drink the stuff. Well, not too often. :-)

You want to know what to be really careful of?

And I mean REALLY careful!

Never, EVER, use muriatic acid, or hydrochloric acid (they're the same thing; muriatic acid is the cheap, impure form of HCl), in any place that has new panelling on the walls, particularly if the panelling has ever gotten damp.

Never, EVER, use hydrochloric acid in any place that also has any kind of preserved organic material in it.

The combination of hydrogen chloride gas, which is continually given off by hydrochloric acid (or muriatic acid, same thing), combines with formaldehyde, another gas, and produces a VERY dangerous carcinogen which causes nasal cancer

About formaldehyde: People often call “formalin” formaldehyde, which is actually the gas given off by the formalin. I just mention that to avoid confusion.

If you enter a room and your eyes feel uncomfortable you should check to be sure there isn't some form of processed wood material which is getting damp and exuding formaldehyde. It can be anything which contains wood chips which have been pressed back into a sheet of whatever. You have no idea how common this is. And if you're in a room containing preserved materials you are almost certain to feel it in your eyes. Try walking into almost any high school biology department. Formaldehyde has an insidious ability to escape through seemingly sealed jars.

You have no idea how many sheds in this country have a bottle of muriatic acid sitting on a shelf and a pile of damp wood products, such an panelling, leaning up against a wall or lying on the floor. No harm done if you're only in there for a minute or so or rare occasion, but if you're in there more than that….

Yeah, I know. The bottle of acid is “sealed” right?

Okay. Try this: Walk over to the “sealed” bottle of acid. Then look around at anything made of iron that's within two feet of that bottle. IF nothing else, look at the nail heads in the wall or in the shelf. Surprise! Rusted, si? Cause? HCl promotes rust. HCl also goes right through solid metal caps.

That probably explains a lot of rust you've seen around your workshop or shed, by the way.

Want to find some HCl in a rush? Look at the bottle of stain remover you use in your john.

Trust me, guys. I'm no alarmist. Separately HCl and formaldehyde aren't too bad, but together….

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Inhaling the fumes from WD40 and carburetor cleaner, not drinking it is what causes high cholesterol.
I read somewhere a few years ago that formaldehyde is what they use to decaffeinate coffee.
Know anything about that?

Tom_Garrett (Tom Garrett) says…

“Know anything about that?”

I heard that rumor once. Didn't believe it then and don't believe it now. Formaldehyde is not only toxic, it's also a known carcinogen. No one in his right mind would use it in a food product. If I remember correctly there was a scary incident a while back, when imports from Vietnam were tainted with formaldehyde that some genius put into them to keep them fresh longer. And I vaguely remember that back around 1903 some other genius put it into milk to keep it fresh and killed off a whole lot of kids.

Formaldehyde will kill bacteria, viruses, and humans. It is nasty stuff. It does have some industrial applications which make it worthwhile having around (mostly in glues), but it has to be used very carefully.

But in coffee? Not a chance!

Formaldehyde is what they use to embalm corpses by the way. It works because it will kill any bacteria that might cause the corpse to decay.