Payson Roundup

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Wasn't it chicken little who ran around screeching the sky is falling, the sky is falling?

Sounds like the town council if we don't vote for a budget override in March.

Quote in tonights paper.
“We would have to shut the town down completely –police, fire, everything,” concluded Evans.

I don't understand the part about going to the polls every four years. Does that mean the council members and mayor would be voted in for 4 years???

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Hi Pat. You pushed my button. It seems incredible that after the council knew better than to push for an override for the last election, they are going to go ahead now anyway to ask for an override of millions more. Isn't it about time for our council to stick to a budget and plan for contingencies way ahead of time. We did at one time have a “rainy day fund”. The town depends way too much on federal grants and stimulus funds. -Fred

JR (John Holiday) says…

I encourage you both to go to the Town Web Page and listen to the agenda item that speaks to the Home Rule or get in touch with the Town or even re-read the article in the paper as you are both so far off base you could not have watched the same council meeting I did….there is no override and the going to the polls you mention is for the Home Rule, not to elect anybody

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Jr.
I did both, reread the paper and watched the video. Full volume and could hardly hear it.
Maybe you should talk to the reporter. He is the one that used the word override to begin with.

Not everyone has a computer to go to the town web page or able to go to the meetings. Part of the time you can't hear what is being said on the video even if you get it. We only know what is written in the paper
Third paragraph of the article in the paper:
If voters next March reject what amounts to a budget override, the town's spending limit will shrink from something like $57 million to more like $14 million.

What happened to the idea when something was needed the Town already had the money?
If you don't have the money then don't spend it.

The threat is always the police and fire depts will have to shut down.

Not we can't buy any more land to take off the tax rolls like the 13 acres at the airport. We can't spend $700,000 for artificial turf. Spend Over $30,000 for a study to keep the banks of the lakes from eroding.

Use rip-rap it keeps the banks of the rivers from eroding !

Let Main St owners take care of thier own businesses no more studies on how to redo it. No more grant money for the businesses. Those grants can be used for things that are needed. It is not fair to use that money to benefit a few. No more parks or jokes like the NW corner of Main and McLane. We can't cover the arena at the event center.
No studies on anything unless it is on how to balance the budget.

As to the four years being for Home rule vote only not to elect council is already in effect.
Payson does not go to the polls to vote. We have mail in voting.

Maybe you should read the paper and watch the video again JR.

DonEvans (don evans) says…

Don't worry about anything, the Obama stimulus will solve the towns financial woe's or haven't you heard.

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

The home rule was voted in many years ago on a STATE initiative and set a specific limit on what the local governments could spend. This was probably a really great attempt to control the free handed spending by most elected officials. The initiative passed and is now the law in the entire state. So the only way local officials can “override” the law is to have a local election every four years to get the taxpayers to say yes - just spend everything you want to spend and we'll foot the bill.

I hope the Payson voters will begin to pay attention to this stuff. It is the only way to get your point across to the people you elect. I can't remember a year when the budget in Payson was under $30 million. Outrageous for a town with a population of less than 14,000.

So go take a look at the state law the mayor wis crying about then go to council meeting and ask them to deal with it. Of course the first thing they will tell you is that they will have to eliminate most of the police, fire and emergency sevices. Why? Because that will get your attention and probably convince you to let them continue their spending as usual.

Have you had to cut down in your personal budget? Why not municipalities too? Too difficult for them - they'd rather override the limit every year!

JR (John Holiday) says…

Mrs. Randall…yes Pete said that Home Rule amounts to a budget override….that may be his opinion but it is not a fact. there was no mention of Budget Override during the council meeting and to say that is, in my opinion, misleading. Sorry the sound quality was not up to par…if you decide to listen to TOP Talk tomorrow at 2 pm, it will be discussed then also.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

JR.
Where do you get your facts? If it is a vote to spend more money than the state says we can, sounds like an override to me.
$50 million budget for 14,500 people figures out over $34,000 cost per person in the town of Payson unless my calculator is wrong.
Every service I get from the town I have paid for or I don't get it except for the 2 times the fire dept. paramedics came to my house and one concert I went to and left before it was over In the 16 yrs I have owned a home here.

It was not just this meeting the sound was bad. I have watched it on the town channel and usually miss about 1/4 of what is said because of the sound system or council not turning on thier microphones. As much as the system costs we should be able to understand what is said.
Why can't the microphones be left on?
No more talking between council members while something is being discussed?

JR (John Holiday) says…

I agree the sound system has been bad…it is my understanding it has been repaired. The last council meeting I thought was much better and I had no trouble hearing all of it. Tomorrow at 2 pm on ch 4 will be the TOP Talk program and one of my guests will be the new CFO and she will be able to answer the questions you asked, that is the reason she will be on….I hope you will take the time to tune in. There are several other guests scheduled that you may find interesting, so I hope you will take the time to tune us in. By the way, I get my facts from the Town of Payson.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Who and where do you go to at the Town?
I have been told at least 4 times over the last year that the sound system has been fixed. Not true.
That came from the Town. (:

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

JR.
I agree with Pat and Ruby. “Home Rule” is the will of the people, and the spending limits should be adhered to by the towns. I called it an over ride because that's what the article in the paper mentioned. BTW, I don't have television. To be able to listen to the Town Hall meetings on Ch. 4 would cost me the dollars which I don't feel that cable TV is worth. I have dial-up Internet so I rely on text-only sources such as this newspaper. When I moved to Payson in 1990, the town budget was $10 million. If the town budget gets slashed from about $57 million to $14 million, that seems within reason to me. You see, I am living within my budget and I feel the town should do the same!
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Fred,
I had a really long response this morning and my Internet quit. I know I will leave something sarcastic out, darn it.
We budget our money on what we need. The council spends our money on what they want.
There is a big difference.

Everything I get from the town I pay for or I don't get it except for the two times we called the Fire Dept Paramedics and one concert that we left before it was over in the 16 yrs. we have owned a home in Payson.
Did we really need a Pioneer Park that has nothing to do with Pioneers? The facade of the building isn't like the original bldg on that land.
A trail system when we are surrounded by forest with trails and old roads?
Do town employees need big gas gusseler SUV's instead of small vehicles.
I never see but one person in them. If there are 5 employees stopped somewhere out of the vehicles there will be at least that many vehicle sitting there usually idling burning up fuel.
Do we need free concerts, fireworks, covered arena, more ball fields and parks?
Volunteer police that have cars that need maintenance, insurance, fuel and the volunteers have to be covered by some kind of insurance. I believe the only authority they have is handing out citations for parking in handicap spaces. That creates a traffic problem at the Walmart, Safeway and Basha's Shopping places. One drives the car with the citation book in it while the other walks along beside it or behind looking at license plates. Give them a little authority and some act like they are head of the FBI.
All of the grants to Main st. could have been used for sidewalks for kids to get to school without walking in the street traffic lanes.
Are town employees paid overtime for putting out and taking back the cones blocking off part of the street on Main St. on First Friday? who pays for the j-johns?
If I had a business in Payson I would file a discrimination suit against the Town for spending our money for just a few businesses that come and go before they ever get in the phone book.

How many studies have been done on American Gulch and other things?
If the dept. heads don't know how to do something or what we need maybe they should be replaced with some one that does and stop paying for studies on every little thing.
I forgot the rest of my rantings from this morning. (:

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Pat.
I would put the items you just mentioned on the top of my list and put a stop to them one by one. You have a point about discrimination. The town has taken on some projects which benefit only certain people or businesses. I would have voted no on them. Too bad they never came to a vote.
-Fred

JR (John Holiday) says…

Election packets are available at Town Hall for the March primary when we will elect 3 council persons and a mayor…now that's an opportunity to get something done……………….or folks can just complain.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Fred,
I have tried to stop some of the things, have ask questions about others. Made suggestions on some.
Filed complaints on breaking the open meeting laws.
Finally stopped going to council meetings and saying anything because it was getting me nowhere except raising my blood pressure.
Most things are decided before it ever comes to a vote at council meetings.
One meeting they approved over $300,000 on consent agenda. Doesn't take many of those to mess up a budget. I don't think the public adds up how much is spent on consent agenda.

The slogan 'buy local' is a joke. The town doesn't. The first vehicle they bought from a dealer here was when Dick Reese was on the council. I think it has been the only one. All others were bought somewhere else. I tried to stop the purchase of a copy machine and got nowhere. It was bought from some company in Sedona. Had comparable one here in town for $2000 less. Think about the sales tax we are losing by out of town purchases by the town.
I think there should be one purchasing agent for all depts. instead of each one buying different brands and services from different places. Not only would it be cheaper but look a lot better to the public. My opinion once again.

I was called a rattlesnake by one of the council members a few years back in a council meeting when she thought her microphone was off and was whispering to the mayor.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Pat.
You've just added several more items which I would want to put an end to. Yes, that's a good idea to have one purchasing agent. Then if we disagree with a purchase item we go to him and raise hell. Now we can go to the council, but probably never be heard.
-Fred

JR (John Holiday) says…

Still not too late to pick up a packet and make a run for council or mayor ??

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Jr,
Why don't you pick up one and file it or would that be a conflict of interest?

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Fred, since they changed the limit on what depts could spend with out council approval we don't know half of what is going on.

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

JR.
I've been disabled for some time now. Or I might run for town office.
-Fred

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Fred,
In my opinion most of the council are disabled mentally at times.
If the town is so broke, why is there still work being done at the event center?
More dirt, boulders and logs have been hauled in recently. Isn't it under the Parks dept and the council just gave approval for a study on how to stop erosion on the lakes. Isn't that all town money?
Yes, I know they are kept in separate accounts or what ever but depts. are allowed to borrow from other depts. aren't they?

I asked a council member a few years ago if they were going to do the event center in dribs and drabs so it wouldn't have to be voted on in public meeting and the public know how much was being spent. His answer was. 'Something like that' with a smirk on his face.

JR (John Holiday) says…

Fred…sorry to learn you are disabled and of course, you are the only one that knows what you can or cannot do. Payson or any other town can always use good people in many ways.
While this blog may have an entertainment value to it, I sure would not use it as a fact finder about our town government. The opinions expressed here are many times so far from the facts it isn't even funny. This post is a great example of completely false information and unfortunatly often times good people will pick up on it and then spread it around as though it were true. My paper of choice is the Roundup, but this time the reporters opinion has been taken as a fact. As I said before, call the town for correct information or email them with your question and they will help you sort it out.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

If you want information from the town, pay for the written documents. If not, they will only tell you what they want you to know.

What word would you have used in the place of override?

JR (John Holiday) says…

Mrs. Randall…the correct title is “Alternative Expenditure Limitation” or..Home Rule. It has nothing to do with a budget override…they are two completely different things. If you go to the town web page there is a FAQ link that tries to answer most questions….just look for Alternative Expenditure Limitations, frequently asked questions….I don't expect this will satisfy you, but I tried.
Please tell me why you would say…”they will only tell you what they want you to know”…..is that an example of one of your well researched facts??? Tune in to KMOG Tuesday and there may be someone who can help you that will be a guest that morning….at least they will try too.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

JR.
You may have the correct words but it means the same thing. The town wants us to vote for them to get and spend more money than they have.

As for my research.
I have asked questions and then paid for the paperwork which is hard to falsify and got the complete answers to my questions. Not just what they wanted to tell me.

I won't be here Tuesday. I will be in Chandler having more cancer removed.
But I usually don't get answers on Town Day anyway. Like the day I asked John Wilson what dollar amount was affordable housing. He wouldn't or couldn't give me an answer. How does he expect a builder to build affordable housing if he doesn't know the dollar limit.

Rick Croy did give an answer the next week on Town Day.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

JR.
I went to the Payson website FAQ.
typed in your words, override and budget nothing came up. Any more suggestions?

JR (John Holiday) says…

Mrs. Randall…………..OK, I give up. I am no expert on our town or anything else but decided to contribute to this thread in the hope I could steer you and others to a place where you can get accurate information instead of this “over the back fence” kind of information, which is anything but accurate. I gave it my best shot with the best of intentions. You seem to be comvinced that town staff, councli, etc. are less than honest with us voters and I can't change your opinion. despite what you think, no vote on Home Rule can add one dime to the current budget…the budget is what it is…period….but I am wasting both your and my time in continuing this….I wish you well on your cancer treatment.
JR Doc Holiday

JR (John Holiday) says…

go to town news…the truth about home rule

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

JR.
Did you read my last post? I went on the FAQ typed in your words, over ride and budget. couldn't get anything. So went back and skimmed thru all the catagories and couldn't find anything. If you are so sure it is on there please tell me where in the FAQ I should look.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Thank you JR. But that is not under FAQ.
I had already read that but I appreciate all your efforts trying to help me.
See what I mean about getting information. You were telling me to look in the wrong place. (:
Smile !

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Nothing like copy and paste Doc, so, I will copy and paste my search results from the town of Payson website!

Results for search: “alternative expenditure limitations”
No FAQs were found that matched your search

What have you to say now sir?

the link
http://www.egovlink.com/payson/faq.asp

JR (John Holiday) says…

On the home page of the town web you will see “The truth about home rule” and I think there is a flashing icon beside it to guide you…that should answer most questions..it is on the lower portion of the page below the pic's of the councilors…….hope that helps….

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Thanks Jr.
Here ya go Pat.
Jr came through

http://www.ci.payson.az.us/Community/…

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Did all of you notice in number four 'not approved' is underlined and the threat of shutting down the police, fire, and water departments is all that is said about closing town departments?

Why not say the town will be unable to cut the grass at the parks, it won't be able to sweep the streets, it may have to eliminate fireworks on the fourth of July and things like that. Instead the old fear buttons are pushed of no cops will be working to make you safe while your asleep at home and your house will burn to the ground because the firemen won't be there to put it out. Not to mention when you turn on the tap, no water!
The sky will truly fall!

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

I think the grass is cut only before an event at GVP or at least that is what it looked like the 7 yrs. that I drove past it twice a day every day.

With all thier ordinances they should have one that people who own the land where the gravel runs off into the roadway has to clean it up. Not the street workers.
Of course if we were allowed grass the gravel wouldn't run off into the streets.

The town is always crying poverty when something is needed but they ask for the highway right of ways on 87 going thru town wihich was an unneeded expense. Then they want the property owners to landscape and keep it clean. Oh yes and after they got the right of way they put in benches like for a bus stops. I have never seen anyone sitting on them. Guess they know there is no bus nor do we need any.

We will have water Shovelhead, we can get it from the Star Valley well. Cut the pay of the water czar. There is probably enough there to pay a police officer and leave him plenty to live on.

All of the above are opinions not accusations.