Payson Roundup

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

I give up, who

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

I heard that this morning as well.

DanVarnes (Dan Varnes) says…

I heard that this morning.

Any info?

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

No Blue Ridge, no more people moving to our area.

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Pat, You wanna bet? I've been hearing that old song and dance ever since I moved here in 1993.

rtnaz (Rex Hinshaw) says…

Dean ,I hope you will research what home rule does and doesn't mean before voting on it.
I can't believe you want the state legislature , mainly controlled by Maricopa Co., to dictate to Payson how much they can spend , and on what. While you may not agree with the present Mayor and council , at least you can call them , go to council meetings , ect. and let them know how you feel about issues…..try that at the state level.
I also think that Blue Ridge is important to this town whether it grows significantly or not. I still believe we are in a drought cycle and wouldn't it be nice to have grass lawns and gardens again.
Ruby…this is not song and dance..it's reality.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Rex,
Someone needs to dictate to Payson how much to spend as they have been spending more than they should on wants instead of needs for to long, by bonds and borrowing . Library and Police station were both built after the citizens of the town voted no.
There was a time when Payson paid cash for what was NEEDED.
As for grass lawns, have you ever seen govt. at any level give back anything they took away?

fred_franz (frederick franz) says…

Rex,
Pat is correct. The Home Rule spending limits are needed. An example of unnecessary spending is the Events Center. The town has been throwing money into it and there is no hope of any of that money ever coming back to the taxpayers. There are also spending plans for expansion at the airport if the spending limits are canceled. We don't NEED any of these things.
-Fred

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Rex,

My comment about “the same old story” was directed at the point that no more people would be moving to Payson. And you can't deny that the aim of mayors and councils is to do exactly that : grow Payson and make it exacrly like the places that most people who move there wanted to leave behind.

I cannot remember a single time that any one took time to have a town hall meeting or to listen to the people as to the kind of town they wanted to build. None of the politicos were even interested in building a nice, well maintained community and letting growth occur in the normal way , but have spent every available dollar and more in order to force rapid growth . Even when it was clear that there was no water to support that growth.

And now its time to take a deep breath and listen to the voters. Perhaps Home Rule has to go in order to force the council to listen.

rtnaz (Rex Hinshaw) says…

Dean , I would suggest you call councilman John Wilson for the answers to your questions.
He gave a talk at Rotary several weeks ago and touched on most of the areas in question.
I'm no expert on the subject of home rule , but I do understand the drastic implications of a no vote. As for where Maricopa county comes into the equation…state representatives are elected by districs , districs are drawn up by population , Maricopa county has by far the greatest population and the most representatives…they can simply control the vote. They don't particularly care about the needs of Gila county or Payson.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

go to google type in Homerule Arizona. You will find more info. than you ever wanted to know. (:

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Dean,
To much to type.

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

I'm going to have to teach you how to copy and paste Pat.
Once you get the hang of it it makes posting long items easy :)

kathypatrick (Kathy Patrick-Baas) says…

Home Rule came about due to a a special election held in June 1980. Arizona voters approved a constitutional amendment designed to limit the annual expenditures of all Arizona cities and towns. The law baselined the budgets of cities and towns to that time and allowed spending to increase only based on population and inflation. Seems pretty logical.

From what I understand, Tucson voted Home Rule down at their last election.

But as far as I can see this has nothing to do with Maricopa County.

rtnaz (Rex Hinshaw) says…

Dean , I did not pass the buck….it is not MY responsibility to inform you , it is YOUR responsibility to inform yourself. As to your opinions on the Mayor….I don't agree with any of them. I've worked with every Mayor since Stiffler , on boards , committees , one on one . They all had different styles of management and governing , but every one of them were dedicated to what they felt was best for Payson and its citizens…that includes Mayor Evens . I'm not picking a fight , we just don't agree , and that's fine.

rtnaz (Rex Hinshaw) says…

Kathy , I've lived and worked in rural Arizona all my life. I just get concerned when a small town gives up any area of self determination to the state. Rural areas are not as well represented as urban areas at the State Capital. You are right about Tucson , I believe they will regret it…but they are an urban area and are well represented at the state level.

rtnaz (Rex Hinshaw) says…

Ruby , ” I cannot remember a single time that anyone took time to have a town hall meeting or to listen to the people as to what kind of town they wanted to build “….let me refresh your memory.
What about Payson Strategic Plan citizen session , held at the community college. I believe there were about 80 concerned citizens that were broken into groups to discuss how our community would develope. You were there….we were in the same group. The groups then reassembled and the issues that were common to all the groups were prioritized.
We've never had forced rapid growth here in the last 15 yrs., it's been around 2.5% until two years ago when it dropped….. 2.5% is below normal for Ariz.

Shovelhead (Mike McLaughlin) says…

Alrighty then, which local politician is going to quit if home rule doesn't pass?

kathypatrick (Kathy Patrick-Baas) says…

From what I understand the Amendment to the State Constitution that was passed back in 1980 was an attempt by citizens to reign in spending growth by towns and cities. It was a citizen driven initiative. It was not sponsored by the state or Maricopa county. As an initiative, citizens needed to gather enough signatures across the state to put the initiative on the ballot and then the majority of the voters in the state voted to pass the amendment to the State Constitution. This is what I found doing online research as I was not living in Arizona in the 1980's. Do any of you longer term residents have a different memory?

Also found that Sedona also has voted down Home Rule in the past.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Dean,
I was also born in Arizona and lived in different towns all over the state when my husband worked on road construction.
Our goal was to retire in Payson or Pine. Still the best place in the world.
What a nightmare it has been the last two years.

Tomorrow my husband is being transported back to Mesa to a home as Hospice dumped him while knowing we could not get another dr. and the nursing homes or skilled care cannot even give a tylenol without a dr's order.

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Rex,

I simply have to respond to your comments about the citizen meeting held at the college back in the nineties . Yes indeed I was there and remember all the work and effort that was put into that effort to set up a 20 year plan for the growth of the town. I believe that Vern Stiffler was Mayor and as I recall, they were unable to get the full 100 citizen participants and finally filled in with volunteers from the chamber and other interested groups to bring it up to about 92 or so.

The meeting was organized by a group of APS employees from the Valley and was very thorough. The last meeting was to put together the consensus from each of the groups and I think we got copies of the various group recomendations a few days later.

I don't know how much you followed up on the results of that meeting, but I will tell you that Jack Jasper and I followed up every rewrite meeting that was held - those which were open to the public - picked up complete copies of the rewrites from each one to compare with the meeting results which we already had. Each time, we complained about all the changes which were being made, but were told there were only small ones. Rex, the finished product might have come from another planet, which would be quite obvious if you had the original and the final ones.

I was at the Council meeting following the final citizen meeting and heard Bob Gould explain to the Council that “Now that the dog and pony show is over, we can get to work on the plans”.

I missed very few Council meetings while I lived there and was very active in town activities. And I stand by what I said earlier. The people who want forced growth DO run the town and are interested in the money to be made over the welfare of the community. This may well be the case in every town or city, but it is not right .

DonEvans (don evans) says…

I am so sick and tired of a bunch of living in the past curmudgeons carping about the good old days. Dirt roads and cow dung. So you have lived in Arizona your entire life, so what. The vast majority of people who have moved here from other states are damn good people (my self included if I may be so humble). I love this area and town just as much as you do. Do I think it can be vastly improved over time, yes. And it will, despite some of you naysayers and I was here first types. So your great grand pappy ran a still on the Rim. Life moves on, change happens, and yes sometimes mistakes are made. For the most part, I believe those who choose to step up and serve their own local community in a public role have good intentions. The continual non specific accusations that greedy cabals run our local government and elected officials is a damn lie. If you have factual proof to the contrary, then quit bitching and put it on here. Name names, conspiracy's, secret deals, dates and who is involved. I don't think you can. Payson, despite the current bad economy , will grow and be the better for it with smart planing and reasonable controls. I hope the ASU campus deal comes about eventualy. Rodeo's are nice but so are other forms of entertainment and culture. There is more to life than just biscuits and gravy.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Don,
It seems maybe you moved here because you liked what was here but now want it to change. Go back to where and what you came from instead of trying to make Payson the same way.
Payson did fine until it was incorporated. It was a friendly place to live, and people helped each other. Now it is about the almighty dollar and entertainment. We made our own.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Don,
After rereading your post this morning, I feel very sorry for you.
You don't know what Payson was like except for what you read in mistaken history stories written by newcomers.
We natives have a wonderful past, and are darn proud of it. That is why we haven't moved to a different state in 70 or more years.
Yes I did have great and great-great grand parents settle here starting in 1872 and now have great grandchildren of my own living here. Same with my husband. His in Pine and mine in Tonto Basin, Payson, and Gisela.
Yes, there is more to life than biscuits and gravy, you left out pinto beans and home grown beef.
Once a year rodeos did not make Payson the people did.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Ain't nobody gonna quit. To many egos involved.

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Don,

Why DID you move to Payson?

DonEvans (don evans) says…

Well according to some of the local omipitent members of the such and such family, they have lived in AZ since befor JC was born, I'm part of one of the secret cabals out to just ruin Payson. I have been at it since I bought property here 18 years ago, built a home with a local contractor, got a job with the County for 10.5 of those years.
But that doesn't cut it with the Grand dames of Payson. I and other new residents just want to ruin Payson according to them. Well get used to change, there are more of us here than you now. Be a good neighbor or be self absorbed in negativity. Either way, change is a commin, some slow, some fast.

DanVarnes (Dan Varnes) says…

“More harm was done in the 20th century by faceless bureaucrats than tyrant dictators.”

Dennis Prager

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Don,
I don't think you answered Ruby's question of why you moved to Payson,
but then I don't think you have ever answered a direct question, only take a swipe at someone.
I think it would be interesting to know your background. The Great Dames of Payson don't mind telling thiers.
As Mr. Naughton says, stay on the subject don't make personal attacks on private citizens.
Politicians are ok. (:

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Pat,

My question was directed at a different Don , not Mr. Varnes.

And the other Don answered as to when, but not necessarily as to why he chose Payson as the place he wanted to go when he retired from his California career.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Ruby,
I knew which Don you were asking. Somehow the posts got out of order.

DonEvans (don evans) says…

My wife and I found Payson by accident on a vacation trip. Just passed through town. Never had heard of Payson, didn't know anybody from here. We liked all the aspects of the surrounding areas and especially close fishing opportunity on the Rim Lakes. We liked the reasonable close proximity to the Phx Valley metro area, (shopping, major airport for travel etc.) We also saw what we believed was great potential for Payson to expand it's cultural and local ammenities over time (like the movie theatre, WalMart, Home Depot, restaurants) and still keep a smaller community feel. I think over the years the pace of growth and what I call improvements have been reasonable and we look forward to the future here. If I make it to 80+ you will never hear me complain about our slow growth and new people moving here.
Why did you move to Payson, then move to a larger urban city environment some years ago in an other state? Actually, none of my business. I hope you are happy and healthy where you are.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

I'll answer that. To many people moving here to Payson to use up the water. (:

Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) says…

Pat,
You just touched on an issue that is going to make the political divisions in this nation pale by comparison when it reaches critical mass, and that is water availability in the arid Southwest. At some point, some politician with a huge set of cajones' is going to have to step up to the plate and say that the “West” simply cannot take any more migrants from the East or elsewhere. This environment is called the “desert Southwest” for a reason. It's a desert!!! It simply does not have the population density carrying capacity of many areas in the midwest or eastern part of the nation. Conserve all you want, you cannot make water appear where it doesn't exist.
Long ago, as our forefathers expanded from east to west, one of the more vital resorces they looked for was adequate water. Everything hinged on that. No different today. According to numerous articles in Southwest Hydrology, a magazine I get from the industry, we are looking at necessary controls on demographic shifts in this nation simply to be able to provide for existing inhabitants of the more arid regions. Wait till little old retired folks in Minnesota and other eastern enclaves are told their warm climate retirement destination of Arizona or Nevada are out of the question. It is coming. Not if, just when.

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

Chief,
Why can't there be pipelines built across the nation that will carry flood water from one place to another to be used when needed? No storage tanks, let it soak into the ground. There are gas and oil pipelines. Why wouldn't it work for water?
Use money for that instead of sending people to the moon.
A dumb women question, Shovehead. (:

patrandall (Pat Randall) says…

No dumb man answer yet, Shovelhead?

Ruby_Finney (Ruby Finney) says…

Don,

Apparently your response to my question of your move to Payson includes a question.

Like you, I looked far and wide for five years for the perfect place to make my home. The day I drove into Payson I knew I had found it! But since I like to know more about a possible permanent nesting spot, I took the time to do some investigating. I checked with several real estate brokers about property values and the tax situation and was assured the water supply was excellent — and I need to state that not one time did ANY real estate person mention that there was not a “100 year water supply” which I believe the state law requires. I went to the Town Hall and was assured that the town would have limited growth because it was surrounded by National Forest and could not grow beyond it's town limits. The Community Development Department gave me an estimate of top population of possibly 25,000.

All this reassuring information made me decide that this was indeed the place! Like you, I bought a nice lot, began getting house plans worked out and hired a local contractor to build my home and my daughters as well.

We had just moved in to our new homes when the Roundup began talking about “Land Exchanges” in process. That is when I really began to find out about the misinformation I had been given initially and about the actual shortage of water under Payson and about the lack of restraint by the town in the use of responsible planning practices.

After several years of being involved with trying to make a difference in what was occurring, it became obvious to me that regardless of the availability of water or how that was affecting the quality of life in the town I really love, I decided it was time to leave. So I did. And I moved to a community of 23,000 - not a bustling metropolis. And by the way, even though there is a good supply of water, we pay a rate about double the rate of Paysons, although we are not restricted in how much we can use. And because this is a county seat, there are more places to shop than Payson has. Since I have very limited income, that really isn't a factor, Don. Quality of life is what most people want .

The fact that I no longer live in Payson does not change my love for the area or the fact that I miss all my friends there !

Chief1942 (Ronald Hamric) says…

Pat, Are we on the same wavelength or what? I've been saying the government should do that for years. How many times have we watched on TV as houses floated down rivers back East. Billions of dollars lost in property and lost business. At the same time, out West there is drought. Too much water in one place, not enough in another. Sounds to me the kind of problem that Americans dearly love to resolve. Since the Feds already have the right of ways, it's called the Insterstate Highway System, then it seems to me it is a no brainer to do what you proposed. Use the highway grid system, along with pumping stations as required and send the water to those areas that need it or can absorb it. Bury the piping and it wouldn't be any more noticable than the gas/oil pipelines already in those right of ways. If California can move all of Northern Californias water south via aquaducts and we move Colorado River water thru the CAP canal project, then why is this such a far fetched idea. Imagine the number of jobs that would create in each state. And the reduction in flood damage back in the mid-west and east would most likely offset the costs of such a project in a couple of decades. I don't know how one puts a cost on drought damage but I'm certain some sharp penciled accountant can come up with a number.
Yep. Been promoting that concept to anybody whom would listen for years. And I know that the topic has been broached at the Federal level, but it went nowhere as far as I know.