Abortion Is Wrong

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Editor:

In reference to a recent letter in which the oft rationalized argument to prove that abortion is good was used — it is my understanding that half of the population in this country think that abortion, the killing of unborn babies, is morally wrong. Period.

Ray Schmidt

Comments

Meria Heller 9 months, 1 week ago

If you don't like abortion, don't have one. However, with 40% of all births worldwide UNWANTED, population growth off the charts, no safety net for the poor it's a matter of choice and no choice for some women.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

Sorry Ms. Heller, but it isn't a matter of choice or no choice for any woman. Except for rare cases, most conception occurs via irresponsible choices regarding pro-creative capabilities. Is it your view that a women's (and a man's as well) irresponsible sexual conduct is resolved via the murder of an unborn child? If so, you have so cheapened the value of human life, that it is little wonder we are witness to the moral decay occurring so evident in this nation and the world. If the most innocent and defenseless have no value, then certainly you and I and all others have even less value. All would be wise to pay particular attention to that last sentence.

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Meria Heller 9 months ago

It's not up to me to pass moral judgement. That belongs to God. I still to facts and reality. What truly has value anymore? Our Constitution? Our leaders obviously think we have no value - pray for the dispossessed in Detroit - support the people that are already here.

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don evans 9 months, 1 week ago

The cheapest and most efficient birth control is cross your legs. It works every time.

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Donald Cline 9 months, 1 week ago

Okay, I will agree with you that abortion is wrong. I will agree with you that in many cases, pregnancy results from very bad lifestyle decisions on the part of both women and their male partners, who in many cases will pull every trick and say any lie they can think of to get what they want. Will you agree with me that medically incompetent and ill-equipped basement butchers disfiguring young women for life as well as "murdering" the unborn infant is equally wrong? Will you agree with me that such basement butchers were a scourge on American society prior to Roe v. Wade, and drained law enforcement resources to nothing without any help from you self-righteous types? Will you agree with me that raising an unwanted child almost invariably results in a hostile young adult with no responsibility to society whatsoever, who is lucky if he or she is incarcerated at taxpayer expense for the rest of his or her life, is equally wrong on many, many levels? And who may, if not incarcerated soon enough, either impregnate or murder many more young women, and that is also wrong? Let me put it to you this way: I hate abortion. I make every effort to counsel against it when I have the opportunity. I strenuously object to my taxes being offered to pay for it. But here's a newsflash for you self-righteous and judgmental misnamed "Pro-Life" types: If you object to abortion, you pony up the cost of safe hospital childbirth and raising and educating a child from birth to a responsible, productive, honest adult. Every single one of them. If you can't do that, you have no right to call yourselves "Pro-Life."

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Nancy Volz 9 months, 1 week ago

"...If you object to abortion, you pony up the cost of safe hospital childbirth and raising and educating a child from birth to a responsible, productive, honest adult. Every single one of them. If you can't do that, you have no right to call yourselves "Pro-Life."

Amen to that!

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Meria Heller 8 months, 3 weeks ago

they are pro-birth, not pro-life or we'd have a country of vegetarians.

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robbin flowers 9 months, 1 week ago

Ray, I bet you have performed thousands of abortions in your life and didn't even know it. For example, have you ever pulled at weed out of your yard? If so, that is called an abortion.

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Travis Livengood 9 months, 1 week ago

Wow... you are really fishing. That was such a weak and bad analogy, I don't even know where to begin.

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robbin flowers 9 months, 1 week ago

Ray, I'm going to give you another little hint. There is a book called the Bible. If you pay careful attention, you will notice that GOD himself has performed "abortions." In fact, I believe that at one time he wiped out much of humanity. You should also be aware that he could do that now at any time, in the blink of an eye.

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Travis Livengood 9 months, 1 week ago

Usually your posts are much more intelligent than this, so I must ask, have you gone off any medications?

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

So Mr. Cline, from reading your position it is apparent that for you the whole abortion issue comes down to $$$$. Once again, if there is no value to the most innocent and helpless then honestly your life isn't worth one cent. " Will you agree with me that medically incompetent and ill-equipped basement butchers disfiguring young women for life as well as "murdering" the unborn infant is equally wrong? Will you agree with me that such basement butchers were a scourge on American society prior to Roe v. Wade, and drained law enforcement resources to nothing without any help from you self-righteous types? " Yes, it was so terrible and costly, that you condone the legalization of it. If you don't see the conflict in your aversion to abortion and then your defense of the same "butchery", the perhaps you can further clarify the issue with all us "self-righteous types" who simply want to save the lives of innocent, unborn children.

And Ms. Flowers, if your going to reference God then you might want to appreciate that it is those that were in sin that He punished with your "abortion" example. An unborn child, unlike the mother and father, hasn't had yet the opportunity to sin. You are trying to make a biblical stretch that is patently ludicrous.

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don evans 9 months, 1 week ago

As to the public cost of unwed mothers and kids who both take government (taxpayer) subsidized benefits. Mandatory sterilization after the child's first year of age if they wish to continue those public funded benefits. Same goes for the identified fly by night fathers who do not provide child support. From watching the news lately, it seems the basement butchers got smart, put on a white smock, claim to be family planning/counseling clinics, created a whole new abortion industry that the government (we) pay for, and laugh all the way to the bank.

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Nancy Volz 9 months, 1 week ago

Mandatory sterilization wouldn't fly in this country, however, offering free sterilization to those who have children they did not want might be an answer. Of course, there are those who won't want their tax money used for such a purpose. They'd rather use their taxes to pay for the child's upbringing, medical and educational expenses, than pay for common sense.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

Would like to address one point in Ms. Heller's post. "population growth off the charts" as one defense of abortion on demand.. Now I appreciate that it may be very difficult for some to wrap their heads around what I am offering in that area, but think through it before you go ballistic. First I'd like to state that no one knows or will ever know what type of citizen any aborted child may have grown into or just what their contributions to the society/world at large may have been. We will simply never know.

Mr. Cline brought up the issue surrounding the "costs" of unwanted children, and Ms. Heller brought up "population control", both in tacit, perhaps begrudging acceptance of this infanticide. That process we as a nation have found acceptable both morally and ethically as a society, proven through the "legalization" of it, might I offer an alternative?

As outrageous as this is going to sound, believe me the discussions toward this end are well underway in certain circles. We replace or offset the costs of "unwanted children" and the population burden placed on the planet, by exchanging the lives of the yet to be born with those of every single person beyond the age of 70 ( I personally would be included in that age bracket). Those of that demographic are no longer productive contributors to the world/society by and large. They utilize a disproportionate amount of services and require an equal amount of environmental support as infants. Most if not all have done their part to contribute to procreation, inventions, work/careers, or whatever contributions they were ever going to make and are in reality simply plugging away day to day awaiting their end time. So, if one can rationalize infanticide based upon costs and over-population, then one can certainly rationalize forced, mass extermination of those who are no longer contributors, but drains on the society/world at large. Sound like a fair trade off?

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Meria Heller 9 months ago

In certain states Death With Dignity exists. It's by CHOICE, as are abortions. If you think the planet's resources are infinite then I assume we should just keep reproducing. Unwanted children end up in the system, and we pay for it, one way or the other. People that ignore that we are at peak oil, peak water, peak everywhere live in a fool's paradise. This is not a govt. issue, this is a personal one.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

Think on it. As a nation we have long placed a very high value on human life. Every human life. We go to great lengths to make sure we do not errantly take the life of an innocent person via our legal/judicial system. Many states have done away with the death penalty to preclude even the possibility of taking an innocent life. I spent my military and fire service career at risk of losing my life in order that others might live. It's in my core value system and a calling I accepted willingly, as the value of every human life was socially and morally hammered into me. A whole paradigm shift took place with Roe v. Wade. As I stated earlier, if the most defenseless and innocent have no social value or worth, then through extension, no one has any more right to life than those. George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. So what? The lives of neither had no value in light of Roe v Wade so the loss of either is of no social consequence. 22 children were slaughtered at Sandy Hook. So what? They are fortunate they were even allowed to be born in light of Roe v. Wade. To be alarmed and saddened by such events (and we all should be) is patently hypocritical in light of the infanticide of over 40 million + unborn and partially born.

Understand that all the above is not some ramblings of an insane person, although I admit I would have seen it that very way 50 years ago. There are actually conversations now and in the past regarding senior euthanasia. It is even been legalized in some states although it is "elected or assisted" not "forced". But the die has certainly been cast. So as a people, we have through choice, so cheapened and devalued human life, that any of it only exists or is any consequence as long as it is convenient/acceptable to the society at large. If that makes anyone feel uncomfortable or at risk, it is the reality we brought on via acceptance of that Supreme Court over reach of interpretation of the Constitution of the United States regarding one person's "rights" over the value of the life of another. How can we in good conscience punish someone for taking the life of another all the while looking the other way while women are permitted, by law to do that very same thing simply by choice and there be no legal punishment what so ever. Don't want to be an accessory to murder via abortion, don't conceive in the first place. Put the value of human life back in it's proper place.

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Nancy Volz 9 months, 1 week ago

"How can we in good conscience punish someone for taking the life of another all the while looking the other way while women are permitted, by law to do that very same thing simply by choice and there be no legal punishment what so ever. Don't want to be an accessory to murder via abortion, don't conceive in the first place. Put the value of human life back in it's proper place."

Seriously? It isn't the same thing at all. An aborted fetus isn't the same as you killing somebody because you want their car or whatever. And don't blame just the women...men need to step up and take responsibility also. Besides, seems to me that if a person hasn't personally been involved in abortion, he/she can't possibly understand that the decision is not as simple and as easy as you write in your essay above.

"So as a people, we have through choice, so cheapened and devalued human life, that any of it only exists or is any consequence as long as it is convenient/acceptable to the society at large."

Tell that to someone with ALS or late stage cancer. Why is it not their right to die with dignity in the manner of their choosing?

These choices are not simple. They are very personal. You cannot possibly fathom what each individual has gone through to make such decisions. Thank God they can make their own decisions on what is best for them and not what someone who doesn't know them thinks is best.

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Travis Livengood 9 months, 1 week ago

"Thank God they can make their own decisions on what is best for them and not what someone who doesn't know them thinks is best."

God willing, this will be temporary and Roe v Wade will be overturned as it should be.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

Ms. Volz, To support my contention regarding the mindset of young people due to the legalization of abortion on demand, I present the following link: http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4849

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Nancy Volz 9 months ago

I don't really care what others may decide to do...I stay out of their choices. It is an INDIVIDUAL decision. Each individual person's choice.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

Ms. Volz,

If you read all my posts on this matter you will find that I place equal blame on the man in the equation as well, when irresponsible sexual behavior ends in conception. One thing that has been ruled on already by the courts however, is that the decision to "choose" "abort" "murder" "excise" or whatever spin term one wants to put on it, of the termination of the life of the unborn is solely that of the pregnant woman. The man has no legal say in the matter.

And on a personal note, I have been directly and intimately affected by abortion. That is one of the reasons I am so adamant in my views regarding it. I sense you also place a high value on all human life and the quality of those lives. It is inferred in your views regarding the personal difficulty one would have in making such a decision. Where you and I depart dramatically is your statement " An aborted fetus isn't the same .." You simply cannot take such a position logically if you value any human life. That life begins AT CONCEPTION! That is why courts have rightfully ruled that if a pregnant woman is killed and her unborn baby dies, the killer is tried on TWO counts of murder. You have merely rationalized your position on the unimportance of that life by choosing to refer to it as a "fetus". If that assuages your conviction or guilt towards the taking of such innocent and defenseless life, you have every right to that view, just don't imply otherwise.

Part of my reasoning for jumping into this issue was to point to the incongruities in law created by the legalization of abortion on demand. Know that I am not against ALL abortions if justification supports the necessity of it. I am against the social attitude that we have provided to women AND MEN that "Oh heck! We screwed up and now we've created life and we really, really didn't intend to, so lets just murder that life and get on with ours." It is that mind set, provided via the legalization of abortion on demand that I find so morally repugnant. And if you or anyone else don't think that such a circumstance does not lead to the cheapening of all human life, then one need only look at the statistics created around that situation since the decision Roe v. Wade. It was a slippery slope and it has only gotten worse as regards moral and ethical behavior across the board. Try to teach kids the value of human life while at the same time telling them we have found it legally acceptable to murder innocent babies in the womb because it may "inconvenience" someone. Trust me. They will see right through that hypocrisy and rightfully so. Unfortunately. way too many young people interpret that conflict in morality/ethics to mean life really isn't all that sacred or valued after all.

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don evans 9 months, 1 week ago

Currently in Oregon, legally, if you can get a medical doctor to concur (and they exist there) it costs $89 for the take home self inject euthanasia drug and legal paper waivers. Doctors off the hook, you die an unconscious death. Game over.....FYI

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Nancy Volz 9 months ago

Yes. There is a great documentary on dying with dignity. Everyone needs to see it before pooh-poohing it. It is called "How to Die in Oregon." http://www.deathwithdignity.org/category/how-die-oregon

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Ronald Hamric 9 months, 1 week ago

Don, Your FYI is the reason I put the following in the previous post " It is even been legalized in some states although it is "elected or assisted" not "forced". But the die has certainly been cast." Look how easy it was to go from justifying an abortion in the case of imminent danger to the mother, or due to rape, incest, etc . to abortion on demand. As I said it is a slippery slope and the comparison between senior euthanasia and abortion is valid. Wait and see. Unless we re-establish the value of human life, not one life on this planet is worth a plugged nickel. We have witnessed the decline of ethics and morality on a massive scale in that regard. It WILL get worse!

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robbin flowers 9 months ago

For every man that wants to force birth on women. I think they should have a forced vasectomy.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months ago

Ms. Flowers, I'm not sure I wouldn't support such an approach. If irresponsible sexual conduct results in the "perceived necessity" to end the conceived human life, then there certainly should be consequences across the board. To not take steps to cause people to think twice about that whole "screw it, if you get pregnant, we'll simply get you an abortion" approach I think implies little or no value on human life.. If the consequences amounted to what you are inferring, that might just be a consequence that would cause some to consider the results of their irresponsibility..

And perhaps you can answer me another question I have had for awhile. Over and above all the contraceptives and condom availability, with the availability of the "morning after" pill, and likewise the easy availability of over-the -counter pregnancy tests, why do so many women wait until they are well into their pregnancy before they make the determination to end the life of the child they conceived? If one has ever witnessed the actual procedure of dismembering the unborn piece by piece, I fail to understand why they wait until the child is fully developed. And the whole thought of partial birth abortion where the infant is halfway out before it is killed, is beyond inhuman. As with the whole concept, it simply seems barbaric, immoral, and unethical.

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robbin flowers 9 months ago

Travis. I tried to walk away from your comment, but just can't do it. So, you sound like one of those really smart types. I bet you think you know everything. What medication would you be talking about? Can't wait to hear your response if your man enough of course.

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robbin flowers 9 months ago

Ronald, The point is, is that it is none of your business what a woman does with her lady parts. Abortion is actually pretty rare in America. The person who waits till later rather than sooner, it is most likely because she is not aware that she is pregnant. Believe it or knot, there are a lot of ignorant people out there. Are those the ones you want raising children? They can't support them and I know you don't want to. The Catholic Church and other Churches teach that birth control is against GOD's plan. So, the availability to contraception is always difficult and fairly expensive. There is so much poverty out there, that contraception is unaffordable to many. Have you ever seen a full grown US soldier dismembered? Why is that OK? Usually (not always) the soldiers come from a environment of extreme poverty, and see the military as a way out. Well, the joke is on them.

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Ronald Hamric 8 months, 3 weeks ago

Robin, A little research goes a long way to keeping one from making such erroneous statements such as " Usually (not always) the soldiers come from a environment of extreme poverty, and see the military as a way out. Well, the joke is on them."

The men and women of America's all-volunteer military do not come disproportionately from disadvantaged backgrounds. Instead, both active-duty enlisted troops and officers come disproportionately from high-income neighborhoods: a trend that has increased since 9/11. America's troops are also highly educated, and the racial composition of the military is similar to that of the civilian population, although whites and blacks are slightly overrepresented among enlisted recruits. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/08/who-serves-in-the-us-military-the-demographics-of-enlisted-troops-and-officers

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Ronald Hamric 9 months ago

Ms. Flowers,

Like others, I will simply stop interacting with any of your posts. You lost any shred of credibility with this "Abortion is actually pretty rare in America." 54,559,615 Abortions Since Roe v. Wade in 1973 That statistic was derived from data from the Centers for Disease Control and the Guttmacher Institute, a pro-abortion group that once served as Planned Parenthood’s research arm,

I will only debate this issue further with someone who actually has at least two brain cells in their head. It's evident you don't qualify.

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robbin flowers 9 months ago

Ronald, I can see this is to deep for you. But, just entertain this concept. How many US soldiers have been killed in that same period of time? Or, ask yourself, how many other world people have died as a result of war, in that same period of time? If you want to be mad at something, be mad at WAR. That is the crime, not abortion. Ronald. I love you and I apologize for being so blunt, but, reality is reality.

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Meria Heller 9 months ago

All these pro-lifers. Hopefully you are against war and the death penalty. Also that you respect the lives of unborn hens by not eating eggs. Also the lives of the animals which are also alive. Can't have it both ways. You are either 100% pro-life or you are just pro-birth.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months ago

Ms. Heller, I see you are making the assumption all of us who are against abortion on demand are "pro Life". Typical erroneous assumption. And to even equate the value of innocent human lives with those of animals really speaks volumes about your reasoning, or lack of it. You keep on supporting/justifying this national infanticide and placate your conscience in any way you feel necessary. When you pro-choicer's get on your bandwagon and start pointing to all other manners of loss of life, the thing you knowingly omit, is that all the people you mention in comparison, made conscious decisions/choices that eventually cost them their lives. How much choice do you give the unborn? So you can join Ms.Flowers and others who simply cannot fathom that their are real people out here who actually care about the lives of the most defenseless and innocent among us. Obviously you don't.

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Nancy Volz 9 months ago

I have written 3 posts now that suddenly disappeared. Hmm.

So all I will say now - and hope it posts - is that this is NOT a simple issue of who is right and who is wrong. It is an individual issue for each and every person.

And ...partial birth abortion is not as prevalent as Mr. Hamric believes. Check the stats. And...Mr Hamric's comment about people just saying, oh, well, we're pregnant, let's just go have an abortion, what the heck...THAT comment is repugnant to me. You may wish to do some research on the "other side" before writing anything else like that. It isn't an easy, simple, devilmaycare issue for those affected.

AND it is a legal, medical procedure.

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michele breen simmons 9 months ago

Ms. Volz, I want to thank you for your posts. I absolutely agree that this is a difficult decision and one for each individual to make for themselves. (Hitting the "like" icon just didn't seem supportive enough)

Mr. Hamric, I am sincerely sorry for your loss. Even now, the tears are welling up as I acknowledge the pain that you are carrying. I hope forgiveness and reconciliation are found by you as well.

I personally believe that abortion is a symptom of a much broader problem. Until we, as a community, are able to really love and care for each other without judging and demanding our own way....then abortion will continue to be a necessary option for those facing the wrath of family and "friends", the condemnation of their churches, and the hardship of having and raising a child alone.....

We know that there is at least one "death" after an abortion - Please, don't continue to "kill" those who have survived....Life and death is in the power of the tongue, consider that before you respond with harsh judgements, please.

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Ronald Hamric 9 months ago

Ms. Simmons, Thank you for your concern. If you've followed my views on this issue, I hope you can appreciate that I fully understand the emotional and personal impact on individuals affected by abortion. As you are coming at this from a religious approach, an approach I have tended to stay away from, I'm certain you know God instructs us to "hate the sin, but love the sinner". It is not those who have had abortions that I am so critical of, it the "institution" of abortion on demand. Those that make the choice to abort their conceived child will be personally judged by someone much more righteous and just than I am. I certainly concur with you that this issue reflects a much larger problem. To me that problem is the sanctity/value of innocent human life or more importantly the erosion of that value brought on via abortion on demand. As I said earlier, how can we view any life as worthy if we can't protect/value the most defenseless and innocent ?

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don evans 9 months ago

And save the Whales, save the cockroaches, to hell with human life. Justice for Trayvon the Thug. Making a harsh judgement is my right to make, and sorely needed more than ever in these so called enlightened times.

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michele breen simmons 9 months ago

Yes, you have THE RIGHT to make harsh judgements...and anyone needing an abortion has the right to undergo one.. I thought this conversation was about foregoing our rights and reaching for a higher standard.

I believe, based on years of spiritual inquiry, that anyone who hates his brother is actually a murderer at heart. I see that you seem to enjoy using words as stones to cast....good luck with that, Mr. Evans. I had asked for the rhetoric to be seasoned with kindness - because it is kindness that draws one to seek the truth and allows for salubrious decisions.

My concern, first and foremost is for those individuals caught in the cross-fire of this debate who desperately need answers. There is hope to be found and Post Traumatic Growth to be experienced for people who refuse the negativity and embrace a new understanding after this trauma. That, Mr. Evans is how you foster change and a new attitude: One person at a time, with respect and honor shown, regardless of their choices.

So, If anyone needs help with Post Abortion Syndrome, I would suggest "David's Harp" by Richard Beatti for the men, and "Forgiven and Set Free" by Linda Cochran for the ladies.Research Post Traumatic Growth and find a professional sympathetic to P.A.S. And remember that hope is stronger than fear - and love is stronger than hate!(John8:7,1 John 3:15 and Romans 2:4)

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Ronald Hamric 9 months ago

Just one small factoid for those that want to play the red herring approach by comparing other examples of deaths to those committed via abortion.

54,559,615 Abortions Since Roe v. Wade in 1973

2,717,991 number of military dead and wounded in Americas wars since 1775

Although I do not put those stats out there to in any way justify the carnage of war, I feel it is important to call someone when they use the "war casualties" in order to minimize the impact of infanticide.

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Pat Randall 9 months ago

Why don't we stop trying to save the whales, the latest rattlesnake to be put on the endangered list and all the other animals and plants and save the children? Think how all those millions of dollars would help babies. Unwed pregnant women should have to name the father and make him help pay for the child to be born and both the man and women be sterilized so it doesn't happen again. Maybe even a jail sentence put in there somewhere. Sign papers before the birth that the baby will be given up for adoption. That includes all the movie stars and entertainers. They are setting a horrible example to the younger people. . There are many people wanting to adopt children. Have them adopt ones born here instead of going to other countries to adopt.

I am an adopted child because my father didn't think my birth mother would be a fit parent. They were married. I ended up with the most loving wonderful parents anyone could ask for. Did not end up in a dirty plastic bag in the garbage.

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Meria Heller 8 months, 3 weeks ago

Wish people got this upset over the NSA spying on us and aborting the entire country and Constitution...just sayin.... These hot buttons issues are thrown at us for distraction while our economy and bill of rights have been destroyed.

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robbin flowers 8 months, 2 weeks ago

Here we go with the men trying to control uteruses again. This is why there is a huge discrepancy of males to females in countries like China and India (to name a few.) When the women get pregnant with females, they abort them because they don't want to subjugate their female offspring to a life like their own. A life of abuse and servitude to the all mighty phallic symbol. Women are still just play things to be judged and for men to control and decide on how they should live. Many of these men will not have the opportunity to marry because there are not enough women in those Countries to "spread around." Pretty soon, men will just be able grow what ever humans they want in a glass container and the female human uterus will no longer be necessary. Soon there will be no need for women at all.

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Ronald Hamric 8 months, 2 weeks ago

I could really care what you do with your uterus. Fill it with concrete for all I care. But when you irresponsibly use it and create a life, I would prefer that that innocent life take precedence over yours. Is that direct enough for you.

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robbin flowers 8 months, 2 weeks ago

Ronald, Yes, you are direct enough. You want me to die because I don't agree with you. Got it.

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Ronald Hamric 8 months, 2 weeks ago

Robin,

You could not be more wrong. I do not wish you ill in any way. I personally don't know you and therefore am simply in disagreement with your position on infanticide. I know this must really be hard for you to wrap your head around, but if you read what I said, I said I place more value on the life of an innocent unborn child than I do on the life of a person, who through their irresponsibility/carelessness, conceived that unwanted child. Unlike you I value all "innocent" human life but have little problem accepting the loss of someone who murders innocents by "choice". I'm sure that is clear enough for you, no matter how you will twist it around to justify your support for infanticide. And you claim to have a Christian morality? Excuse me!!

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robbin flowers 8 months, 2 weeks ago

Ronld, There are many different kind of deaths. I have held mothers who have to deliver dead infants. I have held husbands after their wife died in pregnancy. I have cared for children that were thrown away in the trash. I have been in prisons/treatment centers and seen the result of neglect and abuse. I have cared for victims of War. I have seen thousands of divorces caused over children. Pregnancy is very complicated. Raising decent children is very complicated. Women have a instinct about them, that tells them that delivery of this particular child is wrong and will cause destruction. Women should submit to their husband. No where is there teaching that women should submit to popular culture. So, now take the concrete example with my uterus and apply that to every women that isn't your wife, mind your own reproductive business, and you are on the right track. Make birth control easy to access and free.

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robbin flowers 8 months, 2 weeks ago

None of there statistics take into account suicide, or all the deaths associated with the War on the World about drugs. None of these statistics take into account the current WW3 statistics. Deaths in Wars and Conflicts in the 20th Century by Milton Leitenberg of CORNELL UNIVERSITY PEACE STUDIES PROGRAM. Total approximately 40,968,000, rounded to 41 million http://www.cissm.umd.edu/papers/files/deathswarsconflictsjune52006.pdf. And, Here are some more war statistics. US Military war Causalities: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/american%20war%20casualty.htm

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Ronald Hamric 8 months, 2 weeks ago

Robin, Why are you so intent on using obfuscation and redirection rather than answer the issue at hand. I don't dispute much of the info you put out, but you use those social issues to murder innocent babies as if that was the only solution to those problems. It simply is not true and only someone in denial would try to make such a case.

As to the War Casualties data, a topic which YOU brought up regarding the deaths of "soldiers" once again to somehow justify infanticide, I gave you a valid, accurate source for all "military casualties" since 1775. You did not mention civilian casualties in your original "red herring" or I could have include those stats as well.

No Robin, you cannot profess a morality and go about using other of mankind's problems and ills to justify murdering the most defenseless and innocent. Your solution; We have some real problems in the world, so let's simply murder the babies, they are the real problem!! Simply will not work with any one who truly places ANY value on innocent human life. But keep trying as you must dearly want to be able to look into a mirror without seeing the reflection of one who supports, justifies, and condones infanticide. If you have no problem with the one looking back at you, your heart is truly black.

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robbin flowers 8 months ago

If we lived in a better world, there would not be as many abortions. If women had affordable health care and access to birth control, there would not be as many abortions. If men stopped taking the free Viagra and kept it in their pants, there would not be as many abortions. (I think that for every man who causes a woman to have a abortion, should then be force to have a vasectomy.) If women were treated better, there would not be as many abortions. So, if you want less abortions then a better world is needed. You cannot force someone to have a child and then turn your back on that child. That is what happens. People don't want "cradle to grave," but create the very society that the situation of "cradle to grave" needs are required. You can not force a birth, just to see that soul end up in jail, dead on a battlefield, or living a life of abject poverty and abuse. That is not justice. Once again, it is not for you or me or anybody to decide what medical procedures someone else has. There are so many spontaneous abortions that occur. There are so many other complications that occur with individual lives, that it is just not for you to judge or decide. Those individual choices are between a woman and her doctor. Then it is up to the big guy and that individual. Worry about the quality of water we drink, how much in taxes we pay, transportation, education, health care, government corruption, pollution and how your individual actions effect the "commons." The commons are the things that effect everybody. What a individual does in the bedroom, in their own home, and with their very own body parts is just not anything you will ever be able to control. You are here to control your own life. Don't have a abortion if you don't like them. But, I am willing to wager that if the choice came down to your wife dying as a result of pregnancy, you would really have to look at your morality. Morality is complicated thing. Would you force a birth on someone if you knew that being would spend their life being raped, tortured and abused every day? Or would you have mercy?

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Ronald Hamric 8 months ago

Robin, Your arguments simply do not hold up. How do you address the fact that almost every generation that preceded Roe v Wade, managed to deal with all the "issues" that are so heavily weighing on your soul and that you use to justify infanticide? There simply is no moral equivalency between this nation's moral compass pre Roe as there is afterword. An argument can be fairly well made that this nation is a far less "moral" nation post Roe. We are now a nation of legalized infanticide, kids having sex in grade school, out of wedlock births that are off the scale, drug abuse is rampant and accepted, and any shred of ethical/responsible behavior is as rare as hen's teeth. I'm simply reading between the lines here, but you really have an axe to grind with someone, perhaps some man in your life, as regards the responsible conduct of men and their relationship with women when it comes to their collective reproductive capabilities.

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robbin flowers 8 months ago

I do not justify infanticide, killing a live infant is wrong, no question there. I support women's and individuals sovereignty to decide their own life path. I do not support you or anyone imposing your personal sexual morality upon anyone else. Illegal sexual conduct is a different issue. Stay out of peoples bed rooms, stay out of peoples private lives. That is what the word private means. And, just how many babies have you adopted? How many of those homeless children that are living in Payson do you have in your home? What works are you doing to take care of all those children that you profess to be concerned about? A persons conduct is on them. A persons conduct is answerable to the Legal System (or what ever is left of it) and God, not you. And, just as a note, I am not a fan of R v. W. That Law caused a lot of problems for American, men and women alike. That law, coupled with the creation of Israel was pretty much the beginning of the downfall of the USA. And, I don't have an axe to grind with anyone. I'm just practicing free speech, that is all, wright or wrong, popular or unpopular thoughts, these are just my meaningless opinions and not arguments.

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robbin flowers 8 months ago

Ronald, When Carl Marx and Charles Darwin wrote the New Testament of the Bible, they established the scientific proof that beings who have the XX chromosome combination, (vs. the XY chromosome combination) are not fit to have opinions that possess any real meaning. All you have to do is look at the current state of affairs, and the XY testosterone producing rulers, to see that this is irrefutable scientific and religious proof. The FSH producing class of XX beings are far inferior to the testosterone producing XY beings. Therefore, the XX opinions and my opinions are meaningless, and as such, XX beings have no right to self determination. I just wanted you to know that I totally get it.

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Pat Randall 8 months ago

Robin, Why should contraception be free? If you can't afford it then don't have sex. Very simple The only time abortion is acceptable is if the pregnancy puts the woman's life in danger. If not that sterilize her and the man as soon as the baby is born, if THEY don't want it. If she won't name the father give her jail time until she does. There are so many people wanting to adopt children they leave the US to find a baby. Make arrangements before the baby is born to have it adopted. It takes a man and a woman for her to get pregnant and the man should have a say if he wants to raise the baby or have it adopted and pay the medical expense of having a baby.

Women have a choice of how they are treated. I was married almost 58 yrs before my husband died and was treated very well. You have to respect yourself before anyone else will.

Where did you get all your experience dealing with mothers dying because they had a baby and getting babies out of trash cans?

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Ronald Hamric 8 months ago

" I just wanted you to know that I totally get it." Wrong! You are so off the point on this topic that I can't believe you really have a belief system that doesn't change minute by minute. As I've said sooooo many times prior, I could care less what a woman does with her sex organs or what goes on in anyone's bedroom. What I care about is the sanctity of innocent, defenseless human life. Obviously you place those lives secondary to some person's sexual conduct. Good for you, as Dr. Gosnell and other abortionists would surely approve of your position as it gives them a livelihood. Although they are intimately connected, once conception takes place, that life has much more importance than someone's sexual proclivities. Where in the US Constitution does it say anything about a "woman's right to choose"? Nowhere!! But it is very explicit that everyone has a RIGHT to "LIFE", liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." As I've also said before. When it comes down to choosing just who's life take priority in this barbaric law, I will forever come down on the side of the most innocent and defenseless versus someone who demonstrated their irresponsible conduct and then wants to murder the baby because of it. Simple as that, Robin. No Marx or Darwin involved.

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robbin flowers 7 months, 4 weeks ago

Ronld, You do realize that R v. W did not create abortion, don't you? R v. W, is a separate issue, and the reason I am not a fan of that law, and the reason you are not a fan of that law, are for different reasons. I don't think the court or government belong in peoples bed rooms or private lives. And, yes birth control should be free. I would rather pay for birth control to prevent the unintended pregnancies. Like it or not, people do make love without consideration of your opinions, and women and men are fertile. A pound of prevention......

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Ronald Hamric 7 months, 4 weeks ago

Robin, You sure are hung up on the "sex" part of this debate. Maybe a little companionship would benefit you in some way. You simply cannot make a rational argument for your point regarding the murder of innocent babies, so you simply resort to addressing other aspects of the issue. I'm done with you, for I simply cannot associate or discuss with "stupid". Bye Bye.

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